[FOLLOWED] WARLORD Balance Discussion

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Balance Suggestions [FOLLOWED] WARLORD Balance Discussion

This topic contains 375 replies, has 42 voices, and was last updated by  Mourioche 6 years, 11 months ago.

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  • #119102

    Drink Cocktails

    sounds a little over sophisticated for the Warbreed, don’t you think? But yeah, Triumph put a change in that makes the unit do what it needs to do.

    But as Drax said, the problem is that they have so many techs that are necessary for awesomeness, and yet are too powerful to unlock in the early game.

    However, I think that priest pushback will benefit them as people move to a more cavalry based system. After all, Berserkers can fight cavalry and win, and the Warlord has production and other boosts for them.

    What would probably be best would be to reintroduce the mana to research mechanic, but only for warlords. After all, they are usually swimming in mana, and need more research, so there is probably some level of exchange where warlords will get their tech early enough to make them competitive, but not so early as to make them over powered.

    Basically, since they are straightforward and smash stuff, it would be “throwing mana at the problem” and letting the scholars do their own thing. For the Archdruid and Sorcerer, their own magical and smart thinking nature lets them research better.

    #119120

    ExNihil
    Member

    I don’t think research buff is what is needed here. If any, it shouldn’t be based on a conversion of mana into research – this is simply a way of getting the excess mana dealt with while trying to make the warlord run a bit faster, both of which are patchwork solutions really.

    The problem is that if you wish to research units and progress through the tiers you have to invest a significant amount of research in that direction, and yet if you wish to receive Martial Arts Training you have to invest an equal amount of research (or close thereby) in teching the auxiliary class techs – they too progress in tiers, although more randomly. The Warlord has a lot of class techs that go into the same rubrics within the research book compare with other classes and this makes teching up in both directions very very difficult. Thus the player is confronted with a choice – either keep pace with the other classes in unit research or go for the special WL unit techs. This is further complicated by the fact that a large portion of the WL’s units are not very impressive without these techs, and are in fact balanced with these in mind – thus if the WL techs up units he is gimped until much later in the game.

    I think that whatever solution there is shouldn’t make the Warlord into a research powerhouse, rather it should address the fact that the WL has a substantial amount of Unit Buffing techs in comparison to other classes by either modifying the other classes research trees to slow them down respectively, or by changing the WL’s by making it a bit more streamlined. Since there is a large degree of randomness in these elements, I cannot make an actual proposal, but I am sure the devs can tweak the probabilities and interrelations of techs in a way that substantially boosts the WL’s research without actually changing its basic capacity to research.

    At the same time, if the WL’s units are made better then going down the unit research branch will become a better option. As it stands now, it is a more logical choice to focus on the unit techs first and go with racial units. I will reiterate here that I think racial units should be a valid option, but they should only be an option not THE option – a class should be competitively viable on the basis of class units first and foremost.

    If the direction is to boost the WL’s research capacities, I would like to see this as a battle-field reward tech, working on the basis of an x amount of RP per the number of units killed and respective to their tier. After all, the Warlord is conceptually geared towards combat and that is were the vast majority of its rewards should come from IMO.

    Finally, I would like to see some more city enchantments that will offer a more elegant way of disposing of the extra mana. I would like for instance to see Domain of the Sword changed in a way hat will make its cost relative to the settlement’s size. Also, some strategic offensive spells comparable (but lesser) to what the Rogue has in its arsenal, wouldn’t be a bad addition here. If you guys have suggestions I’d be very happy to read ’em.

    P.S. I’m on vacation and will post only sporadically in the next few weeks.

    #119133

    Gloweye
    Member

    Corpse Looting but for RP?

    mwoah.

    What about combining them with unit techs? So for example when you research berserker, infantry units gain martial arts. when you reasearch monster hunter, irregulars do. and so on. Count Mounted archers for both archer and cavalry, and everyone(except supports) are set when you get Phalanx.

    While I admit that this might be a bad idea due to the fact that unit techs will work different for the warlord than for other classes, maybe otherwise something else along these lines?

    #119148

    What about combining them with unit techs? So for example when you research berserker, infantry units gain martial arts. when you reasearch monster hunter, irregulars do. and so on. Count Mounted archers for both archer and cavalry, and everyone(except supports) are set when you get Phalanx.

    You could have a very basic research upgrade, like for the other classes, “advanced training” that would let you research them together at some effective research cost combination. So when you research the phalanx, it takes longer because you are also researching martial arts at the same time.

    You probably couldn’t pair them with anything below the Horse Archer, as that is too early for those techs.

    #119151

    Garresh
    Member

    How about a very early empire upgrade which gives them bonus research for every unit they kill, including independents?

    #119157

    How about a very early empire upgrade which gives them bonus research for every unit they kill, including independents?

    I’d prefer a knowledge boost from sacking knowledge producing sites and/or capturing cities. “Scholarly spoliation”, like what the mongols did. It could be a flat amount, or a time limited percent bonus (like five turns of an extra research bonus).

    #119164

    Draxynnic
    Member

    What makes me wary about simply increasing the warlord’s research rate is that it means that the warlord’s dominance phase can start to begin before other classes have the opportunity to research the techs they can fight back with. It’d be more elegant, in my mind, to give them more tools to help them hold their own early on. Things like improving their scouting ability (in whatever form that takes) or making sure they get access to certain key upgrades early on (such as Training Regimen).

    Mind you, my concern may well be misplaced – in practise, it may be that the ability of other classes to get a stronger position in the early game means that they’re likely to reach the same point at roughly the same time even with the rate of the warlord’s research being increased. The simplest and most logical way of doing it may be to attach it to Conqueror – units gain extra experience from killing units, and the empire gains extra experience (in the form of RPs) from conquering cities and sites.

    On which question?

    You’re asking the wrong question. Try reformulating your thoughts.

    #119174

    The simplest and most logical way of doing it may be to attach it to Conqueror – units gain extra experience from killing units, and the empire gains extra experience (in the form of RPs) from conquering cities and sites.

    That is a very good choice, as being a conqueror means you are better at looting stuff (it is why you conquer, after all).

    #119177

    Gloweye
    Member

    @draxynnic

    Playing the pronoun game?

    so, are Warbreed gonna be straight-to-your-face-badass-mutherfockers?

    Or, if not, what kind of tricks will they learn?

    You probably couldn’t pair them with anything below the Horse Archer, as that is too early for those techs.

    Maybe thats just the early advantage Warlord needs. Martial Arts is an ability that will severely reduce your combat losses when at equal or superior numbers. Maybe, im hoping, this will give them an advantage early game that will compensate for poor scouting.

    Also, maybe they could get an Empire Upgrade that gives their cities/watchtowers bonus sight range? Late game, screening the heart of you empire is one of the uses for scouts, but this might be done by having +2 sight range and using your gold boosts to build some watchtowers near the borders.

    #119181

    ExNihil
    Member

    Hmm… I am very much against giving the WL early access to Martial Arts Training and/or Thoroughbred Mounts – these are incredibility powerful buffs that can be gamebreaking if they appear too early. The Mounted Archer for example is unlocked in early mid-game, its price tag is equivalent to Summon Fantastic Creature, Produce Evangelist and Produce Assassin. If you get Martial Arts Training on your units – racial and/or class – at this stage you will be utterly dominating at the stage.

    Saying that, it might be a good idea indeed to tie it up with unit research in some way. Perhaps by making it unlock after Phalanx are researched alongside Warbreed. Thoroughbred Mounts might be unlocked after Mounted archer if its price is increased by 100-200RP IMO. What I mean, is that once you complete teching Phalanx or Mounted Archer, one of these techs opens up alongside the unit research, not as part of that branch.

    Regarding the Conqueror tech giving extra RP – it fits nicely IMO, I think it can work well. The only problem is that Conqueror is itself a 350RP tech, which means you won’t be seeing this buff until well into the mid-game; but in my book the WL shouldn’t be a research powerhouse in any case.

    I want to bring up another elements. I think the WL could benefit from a slightly higher gold income early on – yes in later stages it receives a mind boggling 75% maintenance cost discount on its units outside of friendly domain, but early on it has large forces and all of them are maintained in gold, which as I previously said – is a major disadvantage. I think that the Dreadnought should receive the steampowered bonus on gold mines only and not, as it is now, on Great Farms as well. I would rather see the WL receive a gold bonus from Great Farms and Trading Posts in the form of “protection,” “war tax or “capitation”, This could either be tied to the existing War Effort tech, or my preference – be introduced as an element of a reworked Authority of the Sword:

    I suggest that Authority of the Sword should give a gold bonus from buildings within its domain that can be “taxed” while increasing the radius of the domain. I further suggest that it will become castable on Forts as well, not only on settlements – thus increasing their domain radius in the same way and applying the gold buff enhancement. Finally, I would like seeing these changes tied with (but this is only optional) with a change of the maintanance cost of this spell to scale with the settlement size. For example: 3 mana for outpost and fort / 6 mana for village / 9 mana for town / 12 mana for city / 15 mana for metropolis, or any other suchlike progressive scheme (costs can be higher or lower.)

    #119219

    Gloweye
    Member

    I suggest that Authority of the Sword should give a gold bonus from buildings within its domain that can be “taxed” while increasing the radius of the domain. I further suggest that it will become castable on Forts as well, not only on settlements – thus increasing their domain radius in the same way and applying the gold buff enhancement. Finally, I would like seeing these changes tied with (but this is only optional) with a change of the maintanance cost of this spell to scale with the settlement size. For example: 3 mana for outpost and fort / 6 mana for village / 9 mana for town / 12 mana for city / 15 mana for metropolis, or any other suchlike progressive scheme (costs can be higher or lower.)

    Very good plan if you ask me. I was already wondering why Authority couldn’t be cast on forts/dwelling, and I think that the city enchantments collectively behave weird on this subject(Iron Grip is allowed on dwellings, Domain of the Sun isn’t.)

    Also, I think the gold bonus would tie in nicely with the flavor of Authority of the Sword

    #119236

    I suggest that Authority of the Sword should give a gold bonus from buildings within its domain that can be “taxed” while increasing the radius of the domain. I further suggest that it will become castable on Forts as well, not only on settlements – thus increasing their domain radius in the same way and applying the gold buff enhancement. Finally, I would like seeing these changes tied with (but this is only optional) with a change of the maintanance cost of this spell to scale with the settlement size. For example: 3 mana for outpost and fort / 6 mana for village / 9 mana for town / 12 mana for city / 15 mana for metropolis, or any other suchlike progressive scheme (costs can be higher or lower.)

    I think this is a fantastic idea. This would somewhat ameliorate the horrible gold problems the warlord has early game while giving him something important to spend his mana on. More importantly, making this change would force a warlord player to actually *think* about how to spend his mana earlygame. Right now warlords just summon irregulars or hellhounds nonstop for as long as they have mana/spare population in the early game. More choice means more critical thinking which means more room for skill. I heartily support this!

    #119241

    Ayenara
    Member

    I agree with WhiteKnighted.

    #119499

    Kozzie
    Member

    I suggest that Authority of the Sword should give a gold bonus from buildings within its domain that can be “taxed” while increasing the radius of the domain. I further suggest that it will become castable on Forts as well, not only on settlements – thus increasing their domain radius in the same way and applying the gold buff enhancement. Finally, I would like seeing these changes tied with (but this is only optional) with a change of the maintanance cost of this spell to scale with the settlement size. For example: 3 mana for outpost and fort / 6 mana for village / 9 mana for town / 12 mana for city / 15 mana for metropolis, or any other suchlike progressive scheme (costs can be higher or lower.)

    very good idea! – usefull but not that op – fixing alot of wl problems with gold income!

    #119598

    Ravenholme
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>ExNihil wrote:</div>
    I suggest that Authority of the Sword should give a gold bonus from buildings within its domain that can be “taxed” while increasing the radius of the domain. I further suggest that it will become castable on Forts as well, not only on settlements – thus increasing their domain radius in the same way and applying the gold buff enhancement. Finally, I would like seeing these changes tied with (but this is only optional) with a change of the maintanance cost of this spell to scale with the settlement size. For example: 3 mana for outpost and fort / 6 mana for village / 9 mana for town / 12 mana for city / 15 mana for metropolis, or any other suchlike progressive scheme (costs can be higher or lower.)

    Very good plan if you ask me. I was already wondering why Authority couldn’t be cast on forts/dwelling, and I think that the city enchantments collectively behave weird on this subject(Iron Grip is allowed on dwellings, Domain of the Sun isn’t.)

    Also, I think the gold bonus would tie in nicely with the flavor of Authority of the Sword

    I’m going to +1 this idea too.

    #120115

    Lti
    Member

    I like the ideas in this thread.

    Personally I feel like :
    -Monster Hunters and Berserkers should switch places in the research tree.
    -Phalanx should have an extra resistance point or shields should give +2def and +2res.
    -Field Medic should be available from level 2, it would add a critical choice between getting +1 def to increase the chance of your units surviving vs healing faster after and being able to continue creeping sooner.
    -Mounted Archers definitely need something, even as simple as some extra damage.
    -Potentially make garrison’s honor available a bit earlier to help deal with getting rushed.

    #121111

    Draxynnic
    Member

    Now that it’s gone public, an explanation:

    Gloweye wrote:

    so, are Warbreed gonna be straight-to-your-face-badass-mutherfockers, or are they gonna get some tricks?

    Yes. :p

    Translation:

    Yes to both. They get a special trick that makes them better at being straight-to-your-face-badass-motherfockers.

    Hence why asking which I was saying yes to was the wrong question – I was saying yes to both. 😛

    #121696

    Ricminator
    Member

    Hmm I have an idea for global assault. Mind you I like it the way it is, but maybe I have an improvement.

    Currently it gives a gold level to all new city-build units( mind you not new summons once it is active, they remain at baselevel). And units who are already gold gain nothing from it either.

    As a result you can play a bit careless with your units, since replacements are just as good as the ones you lost( championlevel will help preventing this a bit, but still).

    What if global assault would give not a gold level( so new units start with tin or bronze medal), but 10xp at the start of each strategic turn( and maybe 25xp for the heroes and leader) to each unit you have.

    That way you would really continue to think smart with your units( because replacements aren’t that good from the start) and it becomes more dangerous over time.
    In 10 turns you would gain 100xp for free(10×10) so opponents would want to prevent this while wl would want to keep the spell active for as long as possible.

    Plus summons and old goldlevel units benefit from it too, after it became active.

    Maybe it is more suitable for a mod, but I’m interested to hear everyones opinion on this.

    #121710

    Gloweye
    Member

    I kind of like that idea. Would maybe need some balancing, (maybe too strong with massed T1 champion levels – 10 HP/4 turns, to weak with T4’s, 20 turns till gold), but I like the idea. maybe dependent on tier to avoid this issue(5x Tier?).

    Also, dont think that magnitude a boost for heroes would be good – 10 EXP/turn would be pretty strong already. Though I like them finally getting EXP benefit too.

    This would really give the WL an elite force with Conquerer. Also, a nice way to get your units to Champ level.

    #121744

    Ricminator
    Member

    Perhaps, but don’t forget it is an end game spell, and they all are a little op. And to make maximum use of the new global assault it should run for a while….

    But since it doesn’t hamper the enemy you can hope he/she won’t notice it is up. With the old one you always knew it was, by the fact that all the wl units where gold.

    Compare that to the theocrat/rogue where you instantly know it or the ad where you see it as well. Leaves only the sorcerer who can sneakily have his endgame spell up and running.

    #121748

    Ricminator
    Member

    Besides an enemy can deal with massed t1’s being champion or not. Move a couple juggernauts in range and throw a mortar, cast a couple call of lightnings or hornet swarms with HE warlord and they are still torn to pieces. The plus 10hp is very nice but not OP in my opinion.

    #122048

    ExNihil
    Member

    Its good you raise Global Assault. IMO this is a completely gamebreaking spell that has a very bad effect gamewise – it makes the WL extremely OP in lategame and at the same time removes a very significant and fun element of the game- unit leveling. This was the situation before the 1.4 beta patch, and now it is even more complicated due to the possibility of unit evolution. Assuming you have Global Assault active you can simply produce Human Cavalry units, which cost 72 production units for a WL, and receive Human Knights in return. These Knights will then become Gold Medaled in turn. The same will also apply to the Lesser Elementals from the Wild Magic sphere which will evolve into t3 elementals. This requires an address.

    I think your suggestion is one possible way of nerfing Global Assault in a way that will preserve the overall game balance and still give novel benefits when the new Champion levels are factored in. I agree with @gloweye that tier scaling is necessary, and this might also necessitate the introduction of an extra buff. Perhaps all units will receive +1 medal when the spell is cast and when new units are produced/summoned as well.

    —–

    Another issue that requires attention is the fact that the new patch has left the WL pretty much in the same awkward position it was before. True, it now has Field Medic earlier on and some of its units are better – the Mounted Archer is Okish, and the Warbreed is positively powerful. Yet, in contrast to what was expected no scouting unit was introduced, which keeps the WL in its gimped early game situation. There are also still issues with the economy of the WL, or more precisely with its capacity to tech and progress (see above my proposal for revamping Authority of the Sword as a solution). Finally, the Monster Hunter is still a bit awkward (I support the suggestion made by Lti to exchange the Berserker and Monster Hunter in the tech tree).

    I would like a discussion of these to take place.

    #122056

    This was the situation before the 1.4 beta patch, and now it is even more complicated due to the possibility of unit evolution. Assuming you have Global Assault active you can simply produce Human Cavalry units, which cost 72 production units for a WL, and receive Human Knights in return. These Knights will then become Gold Medaled in turn. The same will also apply to the Lesser Elementals from the Wild Magic sphere which will evolve into t3 elementals. This requires an address.

    I don’t think it works that way. When a unit evolves, it functionally “dies”, and the new unit doesn’t receive the same bonuses (except for the mystical upgrades and passive empire spells/upgrades).

    Global assault works on either future units or currently existing ones: a cavalry that just evolved into a Knight is neither (since the new knight is not produced). It is true that producing cavalry would get you recruit knights, but these knights wouldn’t themselves become gold medal level.

    lesser elementals, and anything else that evolves, would become recruit level of the higher being, yes.

    #122062

    Garresh
    Member

    ExNihil, lategame warlord is strong, but as far as the power level of various ultimates go, I don’t think that Global Assault is the best. I’d be inclined to go with either Age of Magic for riftspamming, or Age of Deception because oh god why. I don’t know how things will fare this patch, but unless the warlord player secured a huge midgame lead, I’ve generally done pretty well for myself vs warlords lategame. Their lack of elemental damage means Shadow Stalkers remain a threat, and their general lack of focus on casting allows me to outcast and cause mass riots in their cities. I’ve successfully pulled off a death by upkeep kill on a warlord around turn 140, and it wasn’t even that hard. Those top tier manticores aren’t much use when they’re not getting paid. Also, that being said, global assault is actually one of the cooler endgame ultis because it allows lower tier units to suddenly have reliable access to gold medal abilities. While manticore spam may be the best stray, warlords can drop down to t2 and t3 production in side cities and still get a great return on investment.

    #122079

    syntax_vi
    Member

    I agree with Garresh that Rogues are the best counter to late game Warlords, but I still think Global Assault is OP if/when the game reaches endgame (again from a very long/very slow SP perspective). I like the idea of it giving xp per turn, which benifits units over time and gives you a chance to counter it.

    Playing as a warlord is also boring in the sesnse it takes away the fun of leveling troops (one of the funnest things in game). I’d love to see this spell be replaced or heavily modified.

    #122096

    Garresh
    Member

    Except that you can still level your troops to champion levels. Also, can we not talk about nerfing warlords? They only just maybe reached the point of being viable, and I really don’t think it’s overpowered. I’ve seen it in action. It’s not that bad.

    #122131

    ExNihil
    Member

    @garresh,

    Actually the WL have been made even more IMBA by this patch, and I must say I am very disappointed. I suggest you read the first page of this thread to see what I mean, but I will try to explain in short. The single biggest problem with the Warlord is that it is balanced in a very weird way that makes it very problematic in MP games and also in average speed/size SP games (it seems). It has a very weak start, awkward mid-game and extremely powerful late-game. Although in some fringe situations this might pen out, in most situations this makes the Warlord a prolonged lame-duck. Because of this I have always called for a small nerf of the WL’s late game, and a very serious buff of its early and mid-game.

    Now, all in all you will find I think that the Rogue is actually much weaker against WL late-game with the introduction of Wild Magic elemental summoning. This will give the WL dual channel production that will be able to counter Shadow-Stalkers, and with the WL having huge untapped mana resources in most situations (as he doesn’t use mana really), a competent WL player would be able to mess huge armies of lesser elementals from relatively early on, and once Global Assault hits these will all be made into t3 elemetals. The result is an even stronger late-game even before the buff to Warbreed and the other changes.

    I think the changes done to the WL’s units are good and put both the Mounted Archer and Warbreed in a good place compared to other classes. Yet, these do not address the early problems of the WL as well as its massive research problem (see earlier in this thread). My suggestions are therefore these:

    1. Make the Monster Hunter into a t1 unit available for research immediately after Raise Militia for a cost of 60RP and reduced production costs. This will necessitate a nerf to its level scaling and base stats, but it will give the Warlord an all terrain scouting unit. As such I also suggest giving it a +1 vision range and an additional +1 vision range on bronze or gold medal instead of an extra slayer trait.

    2. Make Authority of the Sword castable on Forts as well while changing the spell’s cost to scale in accordance with the domain giving structure’s type (settlement/fort/domain) and size (outpost/village/town/city/metropolis), something along the lines of: Outpost/Fort – 4 mana/turn, Village – 8mana/turn, Town/Dwelling – 12 mana/turn, City – 16mana/turn, Metropolis – 20mana/turn (or any other equivalent scaling scheme). It should also give a gold bonus on buildings that can be “taxed” for “protection” such as Great Farm, Trading Post and Inn (Great Farm now gives a gold bonus for Dreadnought with Steam Powered, which I think is wrong).

    3. Give the WL a specific version of Corpse Looting that lends extra research points in accordance with the amount and tier of enemies killed – I have made such a suggestion regarding the Rogue which I think can apply here very nicely. Basically every type of will have a certain probability of giving out research bonus upon being killed – Animals will have a low chance, Undead/Monster will have a medium chance, and Machine/Magical Origin/Elementals will have a high chance. Thus it is not guaranteed that every unit killed will give out RP but is rather dependent on a successful roll. This will also put the Warlord in a situation in which he has to fight those units with which he has the most problem of contending with in order to receive the highest benefit. The amount of RP can also be effected by the creature type in conjunction with the creature’s tier. Thus a t2 animal will lend substantially less RP than a t2 elemental.

    4. I think Lti’s suggestion to make Garrison’s Honor available earlier is sound and should be adopted.

    Finally, there is the issue of how to counter elemental damage as a WL. It seems to me that the new Wild Magic sphere will become a must for the WL, and that is IMO in and by itself a problem is it constrains the choice of the player. I think the WL should also have some options from within the class itself that will allow a player to forgo Wild Magic and go with other magic spheres. I think these could be in the form of some good battlefield spells that give units high elemental resistances – along the lines of Force Field, as well as endow units with elemental damage channels. This is starkly missed. If you guys have further recommendations, please open them up to discussion!

    #122133

    ExNihil
    Member

    I don’t think it works that way. When a unit evolves, it functionally “dies”, and the new unit doesn’t receive the same bonuses (except for the mystical upgrades and passive empire spells/upgrades).

    Global assault works on either future units or currently existing ones: a cavalry that just evolved into a Knight is neither (since the new knight is not produced). It is true that producing cavalry would get you recruit knights, but these knights wouldn’t themselves become gold medal level.

    lesser elementals, and anything else that evolves, would become recruit level of the higher being, yes.

    Hmm.. you might be right, we need to test it but I can’t be arsed to reach that phase of the game in SP really :). Anyhow, even with Knights being on baseline the result here is grossly IMBA and OP – the Warlord can make Knights for 72 gold a pop with global assault on, and this is a joke really. Add on top of this the Lesser Elementals -> t3 Elementals, the situations is even worse.

    The only viable solution here really is to remake Global Assault in some fashion, and I think the proposal made above is a good one here.

    #122144

    Bob5
    Member

    I really wouldn’t want the Monster Hunter to take the function of scout. I like it in its current role of anti-sorcerer and anti-archdruid unit, although it should get Elemental Slayer as a boost (it practically lost it in the patch by the Elementals losing their Monster tag). I’m afraid that Warlords would get far more trouble with summoned units without the ability to spam Monster Hunters. Obviously they still could but T1 units aren’t going to be a challenge to monsters and elemental units in later game, T2 can still do something. I think the scouting problem of the warlord should be resolved differently.

    I once proposed Warlords to get larger vision (idk exactly how much hexes extra would be balanced) on watchtowers (with some form of empire upgrade, or perhaps even by casting Authority of the Sword on the watchtower) as a basic idea to start discussion in a different direction. Larger watchtower vision doesn’t resolve the issue of missing treasure pickups, but it does make the Warlord less blind to its surroundings.

    Perhaps a second fix would be to swap Berserker and Monster Hunter place in the research tree, but don’t make the Monster Hunter T1. Earlier access to Monster Hunters means that rivers etc. can be crossed much easier and Cherubs etc. can’t just spy on you with impunity by hiding on the rivers. Both of those two together with the early access to Field Medic might already be enough to make them sort of viable in early game. I don’t know exactly what is needed obviously, you need to test and try out different things to find out.

    #122155

    Draxynnic
    Member

    Global assault works on either future units or currently existing ones: a cavalry that just evolved into a Knight is neither (since the new knight is not produced). It is true that producing cavalry would get you recruit knights, but these knights wouldn’t themselves become gold medal level.

    lesser elementals, and anything else that evolves, would become recruit level of the higher being, yes.

    This is a valid point: as discussed in the human thread, it’s really not clear that a recruit knight is actually better to have than an elite of another race’s cavalry. In most cases it’s a ‘they’re strictly worse but can continue gaining experience and improving’ case.

    OTOH, it’s plausible that a warlord could Global Assault, promote all their existing units, then cancel Global Assault and recast it to get all the units that have evolved to gold as well.

    As one thought – what if Global Assault was made so that, instead of instantly promoting units, it granted a significant chunk of experience to each of the player’s units each turn? That way, there’s more incentive for the warlord to keep it running rather than effectively acting as a switch. In the long run, it’d possibly end up being more powerful if maintained – as it can keep giving experience to evolved units and can push other units up to Champion levels – but doesn’t have the effect it does now where if you see a WL putting up Global Assault, there’s not really much you can do because the WL has already gained the main benefit: all their units are now gold.

    Perhaps a second fix would be to swap Berserker and Monster Hunter place in the research tree, but don’t make the Monster Hunter T1. Earlier access to Monster Hunters means that rivers etc. can be crossed much easier and Cherubs etc. can’t just spy on you with impunity by hiding on the rivers. Both of those two together with the early access to Field Medic might already be enough to make them sort of viable in early game. I don’t know exactly what is needed obviously, you need to test and try out different things to find out.

    This is an interesting possibility. Between scouting and site-clearing advantages, monster hunters are probably more useful in the early game where you’re mostly, well, scouting and clearing sites, while berserkers are more important when you start conquering neutral cities and clashing with other players – so swapping monster hunters and berserkers would probably be a substantial and simple buff for early warlords.

    The one concern I might have is that MHs are pretty good – I could easily see myself just not bothering with berserkers in the end at all because the MHs do the job. However, that might have more to do with the way I think rather than a question of which is actually more valuable. If pushing berserkers back does prove to make them less attractive overall, they could possibly be given a light buff to compensate.

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