[FOLLOWED] WARLORD Balance Discussion

We’ve moved over to the paradox forums. Please come visit us there to discuss:
You can still read the collective wisdom - and lolz - of the community here, but posting is no longer possible.

Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Balance Suggestions [FOLLOWED] WARLORD Balance Discussion

This topic contains 375 replies, has 42 voices, and was last updated by  Mourioche 7 years, 3 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 61 through 90 (of 376 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #122157

    Bob5
    Member

    I don’t know. Berserkers have unique uses that Monster Hunters simply don’t offer, mainly in attacking walled cities. Monster Hunters can’t climb walls and their crossbows suffer 75% line of sight penalty when firing across them, Berserkers can simply climb the walls. And against racial units Berserkers have far more damage output due to the combination of Charge, Overwhelm, and Bleeding Wounds.

    #122187

    Draxynnic
    Member

    Yeah, like I said, it could just be the way I play: I would find it very hard to take a berserker when I could have a monster hunter unless I was planning for a siege and berserkers were my best option for crossing walls, but I could easily see others having different opinions there.

    #122298

    Anyhow, even with Knights being on baseline the result here is grossly IMBA and OP – the Warlord can make Knights for 72 gold a pop with global assault on, and this is a joke really

    why? By that point in the game, everyone else has the ability to train cavalry at two medals (the racial ultimate and the riding hall), and the other classes get abilities that are at worst fairly good, and at best better than global assault.

    Garresh already pointed out that Age of Magic and Age of Deception are probably better. As a Horror fast tech man, you should appreciate halving the cost of getting one! Not to mention rift spamming, or static electricity, or just chain lighting into oblivion.

    Even the worst one, The Wild Hunt, offers strong advantages to the Archdruid. The King Serpents, probably the best warlord fighting units with their savage rage potential and fearsome/static shield, suddenly can move over all terrain with equal speed.

    Horned Gods can go over walls, and Archdruids now can send non shaman support units with hunter stacks that can still do well against the all organic warlord line up.

    It is an obviously worse spell, but it does enough to keep the Archdruid competitive. The Archdruid is also likely to get their spell first, with the research advantage.

    Armageddon is also at least as good as Global Assault, as it stops all natural healing, and grants 80% weakness to the Theocrat’s favorite damage channel. This not only negates blood brothers, but also turns hallowed domain into a useful spell.

    Power of the word can stop entire warlord armies, Holy war grants +9 damage to all devout units, not to mention the advantage of dual channel mighty meek.

    Dreadnoughts can already outproduce warlords, and their upgraded, fast, defender golems will be hard even for top tier manticore riders to take down effectively.

    OTOH, it’s plausible that a warlord could Global Assault, promote all their existing units, then cancel Global Assault and recast it to get all the units that have evolved to gold as well.

    That would deny them the production bonus in the interim, and be highly inefficient.

    #122302

    Ricminator
    Member

    Well I wouldn’t lower the amount of xp gained for free.

    Right now a gold level stormsister has 56hp for which see needed 110xp to get there.
    A gold level he longbowman has 42hp and needs 70xp.

    To be safe from 1 turn killing by a higher tiered unit both would need to have +-100hp, resulting in champion level 4 for a tier 2(56+40hp) and champion level 6 for a tier 1(42+60).

    A tier 2 would need 440xp and a tier 1 420xp to get there. Which would mean with 10xp a turn, 42 turns for a tier 1 and 44 turns for a tier 2 in which global assault should remain active. And the unit should be gold the moment it was cast(and stay alive)!

    Unless I’m mistaken in how championlevels work.

    Personally I wouldn’t call that an op spell, unless the research and casting cost was lowered as well. I wouldn’t do that.

    The xp reward for heroes is also not op in my opinion since you need 2000xp to get to level 20.

    P.S. reading this out has me considering adding even some more xp to make it a real nasty spell to deal with. It is an end-game spell after all

    #122391

    Draxynnic
    Member

    That would deny them the production bonus in the interim, and be highly inefficient.

    A production bonus must be an undocumented feature, then – I’ve never had a warlord game go long enough to use it, but the Tome of Wonders gives Global Assault as granting medals, Charge, and First Strike. In terms of efficiency – it takes about 8 turns to cost as much in upkeep as it does to cast, so the main thing you’re losing is casting points (and a window in which your units don’t have Charge and First Strike). Bumping your evolved units up to elite may well be worth that.

    Now, I’m not convinced myself, but it is a possibility to be considered.

    #122402

    A production bonus must be an undocumented feature, then – I’ve never had a warlord game go long enough to use it, but the Tome of Wonders gives Global Assault as granting medals,

    eh, I meant the turns of gold medal production, since you would lose the passive medal upgrades when the spell is inactive.

    #122413

    Ricminator
    Member

    Hmm can someone explain why I should build a goldlevel lowlevel unit to get an baselevel higher unit, when I can build a goldlevel higher unit from the start?

    That baselevel unit has to survive four battles at least, before it becomes as effective as the goldlevel unit from the start in those same four battles. And those four battles are more than likely multi-stack big battles, because all the nodes are cleared by that time.

    True it cost a little bit less, but we are talking end-late game here. So you would want the best units possible, at least I do.

    #122429

    ExNihil
    Member

    Ok, I’ll try to reply in order.

    Monster Hunters as t1 Semi-Scouts

    Berserkers are overall more powerful PvP units then Monster Hunters by having superior damage output, level-scaling, wall-climbing and especially by being able to receive the Martial Arts Training bonus. Monster Hunters are useful in some matchups, i.e. between the AD and WL and when levelled, between the Sorcerer and WL. They can also creep fairly well. Saying that they have quite bad wall defense abilities and their mobility edge really shines when it is combined with the Explorer specialization.

    My suggestion to remake them into t1 units is meant to make them available in the early game in a way that is affordable on the one hand and on the other allows them to fulfill something of the role of scouts. I think this would actually help the WL as this unit could serve as a superior t1 creeping unit alongside scout and if it retains most of its existing abilities it will be pretty much equivalent to the Hunter in terms of usefulness (although not in terms of stackable power). It is not, IMO, supposed to be an anti-Sorcerer / anti-Elemental counter, as the current Monster Hunter really loses relevance quite quickly – by the time t3 units are fielded the Monster Hunter is for the most part obsolete.

    Scouting and Watchtower Revamp
    IMO the proposal to give the WL extra vision on Watchtowers through a tech/spell as a partial solution to the scouting situation is not good:

    a. In order to have a watcher-tower a player needs to either conquer or build it, this in itself requires travelling the map without a proper scout to begin with.

    b. Watch-towers cost 40g to build and can be conquered and turned against the owner AND/OR razed.

    c. Scouts are mobile units that can be moved if need be and can engage enemy scouts.

    d. Scouts allow the player to pick up treasure, especially at the early phases of the game, and this can translate into huge benefits.

    e. Watch-towers become viable only in later stages of the game and this would still leave a serious gap in the functioning of the WL in the early phases of the game.

    IMO there is no other solution then give the WL some sort of a scouting unit that is available from the very first turns (you can get a scouting unit within 4-5 turns in normal settings for 5 out of the 6 classes even when not beginning with the right tech researched).

    The Global Assault Issue

    why? By that point in the game, everyone else has the ability to train cavalry at two medals (the racial ultimate and the riding hall), and the other classes get abilities that are at worst fairly good, and at best better than global assault.

    Garresh already pointed out that Age of Magic and Age of Deception are probably better. As a Horror fast tech man, you should appreciate halving the cost of getting one! Not to mention rift spamming, or static electricity, or just chain lighting into oblivion.

    Even the worst one, The Wild Hunt, offers strong advantages to the Archdruid. The King Serpents, probably the best warlord fighting units with their savage rage potential and fearsome/static shield, suddenly can move over all terrain with equal speed.

    I’ll tell you why, I simply disagree with you and Garresh. As the WL stands now it has a very low chance of reaching the late phases of the game in one piece and of being in a competitive position thereafter. This is truer for MP than SP, as competent human players will simply eliminate the lame-duck WL before it can reach its power-house phase in the late game. But what is this phase?

    If you look at the WL’s unit and empire upgrades you will note that it has the most potent combination of these in the game by far: a 20% discount of unit prices; a double discount on maintenance costs; city defense buff, two morale buffs, and ofc Thoroughbred Mounts and Martial Arts training. On top of these comes Global Assault. Even without being on gold medal the WL’s units are extremely potent in the late-game, yet once the Gold Medal buff hits they become almost unstoppable. Consider for instance the difference between a baseline Manticore-Rider and an elite one: +40hp, +2 def, +1 res, +First Strike.

    Here one might argue that the Age of Magic is a stronger spell as it gives a +50CP buff while halving the summoning costs. Yet, this was marginally true before this patch and really isn’t now. The Sorcerer has dual-channel production, with the main unit pipeline being summoning, which gives a single unit per spell, which in the late stages of the game stretches across multiple turns. It is very rare in MP games to reach above 120-30CP, which assumes 2-3 glades, level VII Sorcery and 1-2 Grand Palaces, but lets assume 150CP before Age of Magic which would give a total of 200CP. With halved summoning cost a Horror would now cost 125CP, or 3 Horrors in 2 turns at 200CP. This is pretty much the maximum summoning rate one can achieve with the Age of Magic active (I’m sure in some map/speed settings you can get more, but this will also apply to the next phase of my argument concerning the WL). BUT, at the stage of the game in which the Age of Magic comes active, i.e. the very-late game, (assuming the fast-teching situation is resolved!) the WL – if it survived to this rate and is well established on the map (if not it is already dead OFC) – can produce Manticore-Riders at an equivalent rate through its main pipeline due to the possibility of producing units in more than one location, which give it an inherent advantage respective to the Sorcerer. Now, add to this the new situation with dual channel Elemental production, and you see that the Sorcerer actually has a real problem even with Age of Magic active.

    As for Age of Deception being more powerful – this is completely situational and dependent on the adversaries at hand and what they got. WL is vulnerable to this to a degree as it hurts it’s production and it doesn’t have inherent True Sight units. But it isn’t the actual strength of the spell as much as the weakness of the WL that works here. The same is true for an invisible level 7 Sorcerer army leader – you don’t need a tier 7 spell for this. Morale-wise the WL can actually resist this spell fairly well, and I don’t think it comes nearly as close in power scaling to Global Assault. The fact Garresh killed a WL player in late game is really no measure, as all classes should be viable and competative – if you couldn’t kill a class in a certain phase it means the game is seriously unbalanced. In fact, killing Warlords is quite easy as they are still gimped for most of the game.

    As for the question of t2 cavalry with +2 medals or t3 knights. Well, I think you are mistaken – not all or even most players will build the racial t3 building and cavalry units will not thus begin with +2 medals. Even if you are correct and that is the case, and lets assume it is, then there is no comparison between a 90+- production unit tier 2 unit with 2 medals and a 72 production unit t3 unit with no medals. The t3 knight can make kebabs of any t2 cavalry with bronze medal, including the Black-Knight. This is OFC only half of the issue thou, as the lesser->greater elemental evolution is also at hand here.

    Now for a concrete suggestion: I suggest Global Assault would stop promoting all units to Gold medal as it does now and instead give +1 medal to any existing or produced unit. This will work on units that are already at Gold or even champion level as well, thus making an Elite unit into Champion I, and a Champion I unit into Champion II and so forth. In addition it will give all units including heroes a substantial amount of XP that is relative to their tier. Thus a tier 1 unit will receive 5-10xp/turn and a tier 4 unit will receive 30-40xp/turn. Here you should consider that the WL also receives the Conqueror tech which gives all units +50% XP from battles. This ability is nullified by the existing Global Assault in a way I find quite bad. The above solution would synergize with Conqueror to give the WL an interesting edge in a game that now has Champion ranks.

    ———

    I hope the above explains a bit what I mean by the WL being balanced in an awkward way – having an immensely powerful late-game but a mediocre mid-game and weak early-game. I have given some other suggestions in my previous post and I would love some input on those as well as any suggestions you guys have on how to balance the WL in a good way.

    units, you will see that in comparison to other classes’ units they all appear rather bland, and that is because they are all balanced in mind of the hugely powerful unit enhancement techs the WL has – Thoroughbred Mounts and Martial Arts Training.

    #122432

    Gloweye
    Member

    this ability(conquerer) is nullified by the existing Global Assault in a way I find quite bad

    The introduction of champion levels addresses this. Warlord will get champion level monsters unequaled across the field.

    If I understand your proposal correctly, your intent is to give this experience as a one-time event?

    This will provide a serious nerf to WL. However, in that case, it might even be best to just discard the First Strike/Charge bonus, cancel your spell, and re-cast it all the time, except for when you think there is a vital battle shortly. Therefore, I don’t think this would work very well. SHOULD it still get implemented, I’d say to introduce a spell for the same CP cost that would just add the exp. level, without being an enchantement(maybe require Global Assault to be cast?). This way, you’d leave the original one on, and recast the exp one. This would be a strategic choice, as it would block off your elemental dual summoning, which you just happen to name in favor of WL in late game matchups.

    #122438

    ExNihil
    Member

    Hmm.. I think we have a miscommunication. I don’t understand what you mean. Conqueror is a passive empire upgrade, not a spell. Once it unlocks all units receive +50% more XP. My proposal wouldn’t really nerf the WL it will just balance it. Units that are already on a Gold Medal or above will receive +1 rank, including Champion levels. On top of this they would be able to progress with Conqueror to reach even higher. I further suggest that Global Assault would give extra XP per turn to each unit in accordance with its tier, I think this is a good solution that will trade a potentially OP IMBA for a very powerful balance.

    #122447

    Draxynnic
    Member

    eh, I meant the turns of gold medal production, since you would lose the passive medal upgrades when the spell is inactive.

    Ah. Yes, that is true, but if someone was going to use this trick, there are ways around it.

    It is not, IMO, supposed to be an anti-Sorcerer / anti-Elemental counter, as the current Monster Hunter really loses relevance quite quickly – by the time t3 units are fielded the Monster Hunter is for the most part obsolete.

    And if you brought the MH down to tier 1, then if its stats are reduced accordingly then it could be as obsolete against tier 2s now as you claim it is against tier 3s. Since most of the things it’s supposed to fight are at least tier 2, then that would essentially mean that they become dedicated scouts.

    In my experience, though, they can do decently against tier 3 monsters – you just need to have the numbers to compensate. Naturally we shouldn’t really expect slayer to mean a tier 2 unit can reliably take on a tier 3.

    Switching them with berserkers on the tree without changing their tier means that while warlords would have a water-crossing scout, it’s still something that you can’t really afford to spread out everywhere. This is a class difference, though, and asymmetry makes the classes worth having in the first place. The flipside is, of course, that the MHs are going to win most scout-on-scout battles.

    Hmm.. I think we have a miscommunication. I don’t understand what you mean. Conqueror is a passive empire upgrade, not a spell. Once it unlocks all units receive +50% more XP. My proposal wouldn’t really nerf the WL it will just balance it. Units that are already on a Gold Medal or above will receive +1 rank, including Champion levels. On top of this they would be able to progress with Conqueror to reach even higher. I further suggest that Global Assault would give extra XP per turn to each unit in accordance with its tier, I think this is a good solution that will trade a potentially OP IMBA for a very powerful balance.

    I’d be concerned about being able to stack up champion levels so quickly. I’d be inclined to leave it at just a substantial rate of experience per turn with no bonus medals on casting, or capping how high they can go that way – at the very least, I’d prefer for it to be more efficient to maintain the enchantment then to periodically refresh it.

    #122452

    Gloweye
    Member

    further suggest that Global Assault would give extra XP per turn to each unit in accordance with its tier, I

    Didn’t get this from your first post, so I guess our misunderstanding is right there.

    How much were the experience amounts you were thinking about? 4*Tier or something?

    #122520

    Ricminator
    Member

    Ok, I’ll try to reply in order.

    Monster Hunters as t1 Semi-Scouts

    Berserkers are overall more powerful PvP units then Monster Hunters by having superior damage output, level-scaling, wall-climbing and especially by being able to receive the Martial Arts Training bonus. Monster Hunters are useful in some matchups, i.e. between the AD and WL and when levelled, between the Sorcerer and WL. They can also creep fairly well. Saying that they have quite bad wall defense abilities and their mobility edge really shines when it is combined with the Explorer specialization.

    My suggestion to remake them into t1 units is meant to make them available in the early game in a way that is affordable on the one hand and on the other allows them to fulfill something of the role of scouts. I think this would actually help the WL as this unit could serve as a superior t1 creeping unit alongside scout and if it retains most of its existing abilities it will be pretty much equivalent to the Hunter in terms of usefulness (although not in terms of stackable power). It is not, IMO, supposed to be an anti-Sorcerer / anti-Elemental counter, as the current Monster Hunter really loses relevance quite quickly – by the time t3 units are fielded the Monster Hunter is for the most part obsolete.

    What I understood from Tombles is, that there is a new scout unit in the works with swimming, so I don’t think we need to nerf the monsterhunter.

    If the monsterhunter is subpar we should buff it so all animals run away for it. Afterall it is his profession to hunt monsters, so perhaps give him some more ranged attackstrenght( double-shot at gold?) to penetrate wyvernscales, boarskin and the rest better and some more elemental resistances to deal with the monsters/animals attacks in the form of a fireproof leather armor( which keeps you warm at night at the same time). Even venom might drip of it without doing too much damage. I believe that will help him becoming a better unit then, for he can counter a lot of elemental attacks.

    Scouting and Watchtower Revamp<br>
    IMO the proposal to give the WL extra vision on Watchtowers through a tech/spell as a partial solution to the scouting situation is not good:

    a. In order to have a watcher-tower a player needs to either conquer or build it, this in itself requires travelling the map without a proper scout to begin with.

    That is not true most players start with clearing the surroundings of their capitals with their main army even Ayenara, Marcus and BBB do so. So you automaticly have a good idea where to build a watchtower without using a scout.

    Further most games you start with an army and in that army is most of the time a t2 cavalry unit. You can make excellent use of that to scout further. See BBB’s LP on halflings where he is doing that.

    b. Watch-towers cost 40g to build and can be conquered and turned against the owner AND/OR razed.

    True but there is also a couple of times asked/proposed to delay the razing of a structure to a turn. If that is considered, the problem is solved since you can keep a mobile force close by to deal with that( would make for a nice strategy).

    c. Scouts are mobile units that can be moved if need be and can engage enemy scouts.

    d. Scouts allow the player to pick up treasure, especially at the early phases of the game, and this can translate into huge benefits.

    use horses. You can outrun a spydrone.

    e. Watch-towers become viable only in later stages of the game and this would still leave a serious gap in the functioning of the WL in the early phases of the game.

    IMO there is no other solution then give the WL some sort of a scouting unit that is available from the very first turns (you can get a scouting unit within 4-5 turns in normal settings for 5 out of the 6 classes even when not beginning with the right tech researched).

    No a watchtower is a useful structure from the beginning for a wl. I like the idea for a classtrait to increase the sightrange for a wl watchtower.

    Or perhaps it can have true sight instead.

    Or you can think of incorporating the watchtower to the wl’s forts, so that when an enemy moves in range(1-hex for a wooden fort, 2-hexes for a stone one) it is automaticly dragged into a fight with the defenders(which you can fight out manually ofc) so a wl can control who enters his lands. Right now you can flyby a fort, bypassing its defenders.

    If carried out correctly you can go for a “Vauban”-defence( the forts already look like his real forts anyway).

    Or allow construction of a lighthouse at a coastline 3 or 4 hexes off a harbor to get this idea as well. Stuff it with archers/supports and you can fight of bypassing ships/armies.

    The Global Assault Issue

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>chrysophylax páuperem wrote:</div>
    why? By that point in the game, everyone else has the ability to train cavalry at two medals (the racial ultimate and the riding hall), and the other classes get abilities that are at worst fairly good, and at best better than global assault.

    Garresh already pointed out that Age of Magic and Age of Deception are probably better. As a Horror fast tech man, you should appreciate halving the cost of getting one! Not to mention rift spamming, or static electricity, or just chain lighting into oblivion.

    Even the worst one, The Wild Hunt, offers strong advantages to the Archdruid. The King Serpents, probably the best warlord fighting units with their savage rage potential and fearsome/static shield, suddenly can move over all terrain with equal speed.

    I’ll tell you why, I simply disagree with you and Garresh. As the WL stands now it has a very low chance of reaching the late phases of the game in one piece and of being in a competitive position thereafter. This is truer for MP than SP, as competent human players will simply eliminate the lame-duck WL before it can reach its power-house phase in the late game. But what is this phase?

    If you look at the WL’s unit and empire upgrades you will note that it has the most potent combination of these in the game by far: a 20% discount of unit prices; a double discount on maintenance costs; city defense buff, two morale buffs, and ofc Thoroughbred Mounts and Martial Arts training. On top of these comes Global Assault. Even without being on gold medal the WL’s units are extremely potent in the late-game, yet once the Gold Medal buff hits they become almost unstoppable. Consider for instance the difference between a baseline Manticore-Rider and an elite one: +40hp, +2 def, +1 res, +First Strike.

    Here one might argue that the Age of Magic is a stronger spell as it gives a +50CP buff while halving the summoning costs. Yet, this was marginally true before this patch and really isn’t now. The Sorcerer has dual-channel production, with the main unit pipeline being summoning, which gives a single unit per spell, which in the late stages of the game stretches across multiple turns. It is very rare in MP games to reach above 120-30CP, which assumes 2-3 glades, level VII Sorcery and 1-2 Grand Palaces, but lets assume 150CP before Age of Magic which would give a total of 200CP. With halved summoning cost a Horror would now cost 125CP, or 3 Horrors in 2 turns at 200CP. This is pretty much the maximum summoning rate one can achieve with the Age of Magic active (I’m sure in some map/speed settings you can get more, but this will also apply to the next phase of my argument concerning the WL). BUT, at the stage of the game in which the Age of Magic comes active, i.e. the very-late game, (assuming the fast-teching situation is resolved!) the WL – if it survived to this rate and is well established on the map (if not it is already dead OFC) – can produce Manticore-Riders at an equivalent rate through its main pipeline due to the possibility of producing units in more than one location, which give it an inherent advantage respective to the Sorcerer. Now, add to this the new situation with dual channel Elemental production, and you see that the Sorcerer actually has a real problem even with Age of Magic active.

    As for Age of Deception being more powerful – this is completely situational and dependent on the adversaries at hand and what they got. WL is vulnerable to this to a degree as it hurts it’s production and it doesn’t have inherent True Sight units. But it isn’t the actual strength of the spell as much as the weakness of the WL that works here. The same is true for an invisible level 7 Sorcerer army leader – you don’t need a tier 7 spell for this. Morale-wise the WL can actually resist this spell fairly well, and I don’t think it comes nearly as close in power scaling to Global Assault. The fact Garresh killed a WL player in late game is really no measure, as all classes should be viable and competative – if you couldn’t kill a class in a certain phase it means the game is seriously unbalanced. In fact, killing Warlords is quite easy as they are still gimped for most of the game.

    As for the question of t2 cavalry with +2 medals or t3 knights. Well, I think you are mistaken – not all or even most players will build the racial t3 building and cavalry units will not thus begin with +2 medals. Even if you are correct and that is the case, and lets assume it is, then there is no comparison between a 90+- production unit tier 2 unit with 2 medals and a 72 production unit t3 unit with no medals. The t3 knight can make kebabs of any t2 cavalry with bronze medal, including the Black-Knight. This is OFC only half of the issue thou, as the lesser->greater elemental evolution is also at hand here.

    Now for a concrete suggestion: I suggest Global Assault would stop promoting all units to Gold medal as it does now and instead give +1 medal to any existing or produced unit. This will work on units that are already at Gold or even champion level as well, thus making an Elite unit into Champion I, and a Champion I unit into Champion II and so forth. In addition it will give all units including heroes a substantial amount of XP that is relative to their tier. Thus a tier 1 unit will receive 5-10xp/turn and a tier 4 unit will receive 30-40xp/turn. Here you should consider that the WL also receives the Conqueror tech which gives all units +50% XP from battles. This ability is nullified by the existing Global Assault in a way I find quite bad. The above solution would synergize with Conqueror to give the WL an interesting edge in a game that now has Champion ranks.

    ———

    I hope the above explains a bit what I mean by the WL being balanced in an awkward way – having an immensely powerful late-game but a mediocre mid-game and weak early-game. I have given some other suggestions in my previous post and I would love some input on those as well as any suggestions you guys have on how to balance the WL in a good way.

    units, you will see that in comparison to other classes’ units they all appear rather bland, and that is because they are all balanced in mind of the hugely powerful unit enhancement techs the WL has – Thoroughbred Mounts and Martial Arts Training.

    Well a wl can build a manticore in every town true, but getting them where he wants them is part two, where a sorcerer can summon his horrors where he needs them straight away.

    If global assault should give a medal as well, well that is something what is fine by me, should make it more potent once you cast it. If it fits with the overall balance.

    I won’t be online much after this post since I have a campaign to finish before tomorrows patch ruins my saves. So I will hopefully return after that is done.

    #122542

    ExNihil
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>ExNihil wrote:</div>
    further suggest that Global Assault would give extra XP per turn to each unit in accordance with its tier, I

    Didn’t get this from your first post, so I guess our misunderstanding is right there.

    How much were the experience amounts you were thinking about? 4*Tier or something?

    Hmm, 8*tier would be a better fit: Assuming a baseline Manticore Rider, it will receive +1 rank and than receive 32xp every turn, meaning it will reach Gold Medal within 5 turns without any creeping experience. OFC if this is deemed too much it can be adjusted down to 6xp*tier or if it is too little it can be adjusted up, the beauty of this scheme is that it is very easy to adjust.

    #122610

    Yet, this was marginally true before this patch and really isn’t now. The Sorcerer has dual-channel production, with the main unit pipeline being summoning, which gives a single unit per spell, which in the late stages of the game stretches across multiple turns… BUT, at the stage of the game in which the Age of Magic comes active, i.e. the very-late game, (assuming the fast-teching situation is resolved!) the WL – if it survived to this rate and is well established on the map (if not it is already dead OFC) – can produce Manticore-Riders at an equivalent rate through its main pipeline due to the possibility of producing units in more than one location, which give it an inherent advantage respective to the Sorcerer.

    Well, Sorcerers already had the advantage of mobile production and invisible leader, which remain pretty amazing when fighting warlords, and now partisan has introduced an additional synergy.

    The ultimate upgrade allows every single unit, when it is the only one in the stack, to have forest, mountain, and wetland concealment. That means an invisible sorcerer army can invisibly produce units in any one of these three common terrains.

    This also benefits Archdruids, who can summon on the go and have their floating super mobile troops descend from mountains (although they lack the invisible leader upgrade).

    I’d say that the status quo ante is intact because of this.

    The t3 knight can make kebabs of any t2 cavalry with bronze medal, including the Black-Knight. This is OFC only half of the issue thou, as the lesser->greater elemental evolution is also at hand here.

    gold medal ones, yes, of course they can! As for recruit level knights, with all the upgrades, yes, they could.

    However, it isn’t just going to be recruit knights fighting bronze level cavalry, but the recruit knights fighting a mix of bronze level cavalry and the already existing elite level cavalry.

    The warlord will still have the advantage (unless fighting a souped up Dreadnought cavalry army), but not by so much as to be unbalanced.

    As for lesser elementals, well, Sorcerers at least get the double cp, and have bind as well as banish, so I don’t think elementals really pose a problem for them. Or for anyone with degenerate, as that will erase the bonuses and make all the weakness preposterous.

    It will probably become common to kit heroes with fairy fire and blight/spirit damage to deal with this very eventuality.

    The warlord would also have to use all their cp to summon the elemental, and a warlord with zero spell support in combat is quite vulnerable, especially to the caster classes.

    The fact Garresh killed a WL player in late game is really no measure, as all classes should be viable and competative

    Not by itself, no, but he suggested that he killed it in the “proper” rouge like fashion: i.e., he relied on indirect warfare to undo the Warlord’s straightforward advantage. It isn’t dispositive, but does point to a closer balance than you suggest for the very late game (no one, by the way, is disputing the Warlord’s early to mid game weakness).

    I have given some other suggestions in my previous post and I would love some input on those as well as any suggestions you guys have on how to balance the WL in a good way.

    I think a good, dedicated scout unit would solve most of the problems. You could also have a “research looting” option for some of the other upgrades.

    #122663

    ExNihil
    Member

    Well, I must say I enjoy reading your posts – they are very illuminating always. I agree with a lot of what you are saying, and I actually don’t understand on what we are arguing here.

    I think that the biggest advantage of the Sorcerer is its capacity to start producing earlier than the others as well as summoning on the move. The Rogue and Sorcerer are the two classes that reach their optimum the quickest IMO. The Warlord is the slowest one but because of that the most extreme. I have two issues here:

    1. I think it is too slow.
    2. I think it is too extreme.

    Both of these make it IMO too weak to the point of being no fun.

    Now, I am personally a proponent of the idea that Warlords should be the most warlike of all classes and should therefore be powerful if not very powerful earlier on. The current balance of the Warlord seems to me to be based on the idea that a great war-machine needs to be set up properly and that takes time. Yet IMO that is doubly true of the dreadnought which is much, much faster.

    I recognize that that might be the concept the Devs have AND/OR that a lot of people espouse. I respect it and have no problem with it. But I do think that there is no justification for the early to late-mid game weakness of the Warlord- it shouldn’t be that weak, this is extreme. I also think the late-game is too extreme in its present form and would like to see some of the power shifted to an earlier phase of the game. I want the Warlord to be as competitive as the other classes in MP- some limitations but one that still give it viability in every game situation if played well and some ok luck.

    I therefore propose the Authority of the Sword buff to boost it much earlier, and I hope that if Monster Hunter is switched with Berserker – t1 or t2, it could clear much better. I would like seeing the Monster Hunter receive some powerful buff that gives it a unique flavor, compensating for it incapacity to receive Martial Arts Training.

    #122679

    Something I posted elsewhere was to change the way war effort works, by making it buff every resource by + 10, but cost 20 or mana upkeep (minimum, so a net mana loss) and reduce population happiness, or at least the morale of troops there (by about -200) and population growth, by about 100 a turn minimum.

    This way, the Warlord can put on extra production (but not as good as a Dreadnought) and extra resources, but has a hefty drawback.

    Also, a crack the whip ability, which would remove the hurry morale costs and half the hurry gold costs, but use 100 population each time (like call militia).

    Those 2 will give the Warlord much more control over his economy, but the drawbacks and costs are such that you won’t want to, or be able to, use it everywhere.

    Rumour has it a new scout is being introduced, so I won’t say anything about designing such a unit until it is confirmed or denied.

    Regarding Monster Hunters before Berserkers, I’m not sure how much it will fix the problem, but I like this idea in principle, as it will put Monster Hunters and normal Hunters directly against each other, and allow Warlords anti-summons capacity and okay scouting a bit earlier.

    By turn 6 or so one could have one’s first Monster Hunter out and about, which would be useful indeed.

    #122716

    Morty
    Member

    I’m assuming this new scout would appear in a patch after this one.

    #122725

    of what you are saying, and I actually don’t understand on what we are arguing here.

    whether Global Assault is op as is or not! I think you could buff the earlier game without needing to disbuff the late game, whereas you think that the warlord needs to redistribute “relative advantage” away from the late game into the early and mid games.

    I pointed out the late game advantages of other classes (including newly emerging ones) to suggest that the late game balance is fine as is.

    #122749

    Bouh
    Member

    I don’t think the warlord needs any economy buff. Franckly, with the upkeep reduction spells and cost reduction research, I think the warlord already have by far the best economy tools in game.

    #122768

    alf978
    Member

    Okay, I thought I chime in here on something that’s been bugging me a bit.

    All the concealment abilities added to the Rouge, AD, and Reed Serpent.
    Doesn’t it feel like those would be at the expense of the Warlord, more than any other class? The Sorcerer can already gain invisibility, now the more expanded capabilities of the Rouge and AD. How is the WL going to compensate.
    Theocrat relies on support units as their bread and butter, i.e. built-in true sight, the DN I believe will at least gain True Sight as a Hero upgrade.
    No such luck for the WL on either front. Plus priest have been pushed even further back with the Temple, i.e. less accessible access to true sight support units…
    What if the Monster Hunter would receive True Sight as an medal upgrade or inherent bonus? And IF it were to change position with the Bezerker, still as a T2, it could act as quasi anti-scout unit earlier on. Not quite capable as a true scout, but rather with integrated scout/concealment defense for the WL?

    Secondly, while I’m on the subject, according to Garresh, (and I hope I’m not misquoting or taking this out of context), but the Shadow Stalker is already a formidable weapon against the WL, now with the introduction of the lesser Shadow Stalker, wouldn’t that just exacerbate that disparity? This also goes to highlight the need for elemental damage in the WL repertoire. (Case in point, goblin MH, does guys are amazing, due to the 4 blight damage on the ranged attack)
    And again with the addition of Elementals now being their own type, including Stalkers, that does seeme like an indirect nerf to the MH to me, as those units now no longer get their slayer ability against those Stalker/Elementals.
    Granted they are not a hard counter, but personally, I found the MH had still great viability to help bring those units down, and flanking struck a bit harder…
    I typically kept MH in my stack composition long into the late game due to their versatility, which I feel now has been hampered even further.

    Am I way off base here? I know I’m projecting a bit here.(I guess I’ll find out after tomorrow 🙂 )
    But I thought I still raise the point to get other people’s input…

    Thnx

    #122800

    Draxynnic
    Member

    There’s a valid point, actually: MHs should possibly get an Elemental Slayer ability.

    #122810

    alf978
    Member

    Well, if I am correct, and considering that as of tomorrow, elementals are going to be much more prevalent in the game; it would have reduced the MH utility even further.
    Considering they were all previously categorized as Monsters, which Monster Hunters… well,… hunted. LOL

    Though as of 1.42, not so much anymore.
    I’m especially thinking of the lesser elementals early on, and the Seal guardians, which when first introduced, and what I gleaned from BBB’s LP series, would have been a great match up for the MHs…
    Finally, something that the WL could have possibly excelled at in the early game?
    At least that was my personal hope, until that is, I read through the patch notes.

    And I just happened to wonder, if any of the Beta testers or Dev, playing WL noticed that they didn’t quite hit as hard anymore?
    Anyway, just some food for thought.

    #122814

    ExNihil
    Member

    Well, Welcome aboard! Some good points.

    The Warlord definitely has a problem of dealing with concealment and I think it needs options. Here I think your proposal to give Monster Hunter true sight on medal (bronze) is very good and useful and perhaps some inherent concealment abilities in and by itself – perhaps Urban Concealment, so it can be invisible on dungeons, gold mines and so forth. As for Elemental damage, it has been discussed many times – I think there is no doubt this is the single greatest weakness of the Warlord in combat, that and its quite bad siege abilities :). I would like to see Elemental damage introduced on the units themselves and as spell buffs. Finally, I agree that the introduction of the Elemental label nerfed the Monster Hunter even further – I think it has to have the Elemental Slayer trait at some juncture – either baseline or medal. Lets look at the Monster Hunter:

    Cost 70g/20m, 8g maintenanace. 50hp, 32mp, 12def/10res. Melee Strike – 12 Physical Damage, Shoot Light Crossbow – 11 Physical Damage. Monster Slayer, Animal Slayer, Giant Slayer, Dragon Slayer, Fey Slayer, Walking Swimming, Irregular, Armored, 20% Fire Resistance, 20% Frost Resistance, 20% Shock Resistance.

    Tin Medal: +1 melee damage, +4hp
    Bronze Medal: +1 ranged damage, +1 defense, +4hp, Undead Slayer
    Silver Medal: +1 melee damage, +1 Resistance, +4hp, Summon Slayer
    Gold Medal: +1 melee damage, +1 defense, +8hp, Throw Net

    Ok, IMO there are three problems that are quite obvious with this makeup:

    1. The Monster Hunter doesn’t have any blight resistance whatsoever, and this is really awkward. Blight is the single most common damage in game and is definetly the most common MONSTER damage in game.

    2. Shoot Light Crossbow is a really terrible ranged attack even with a +3 bonus. This unit is 80% melee and 20% ranged because of this.

    3. Although it is supposed to be a master of poisons and in control of at least some magic, the Monster Hunter has no elemental damage (not even Blight!) at all and no special magic like skills and abilities aside from the slayer traits.

    I have two suggested ways in which this unit can be rebalanced. Lets start with the simplest solution, which is to keep it as a t2 unit but make it appear before the Berserker. In this case I would want it to look like this:

    Cost 70g/20m, 8g maintenance. 50hp, 32mp, 12def/11res. Melee Strike – 10 Physical Damage+2 Blight Damage, Shoot Blow Pipe – 4 Physcial Damage+4 Blight Damage (can trigger x3). Monster Slayer, Animal Slayer, Giant Slayer, Dragon Slayer, Fey Slayer, Elemental Slayer, Undead Slayer [Moved from Bronze Medal], Walking Swimming, Irregular, Armored, 20% Fire Resistance, 20% Frost Resistance, 20% Shock Resistance, 40% Blight Resistance.

    Tin Medal: +1 physical melee damage, +4hp
    Bronze Medal: +1 physical ranged damage, +1 defense, +4hp, True Sight
    Silver Medal: +1 blight melee damage, +1 Resistance, +4hp, Summon Slayer
    Gold Medal: +1 blight ranged damage, +1 defense, +8hp, Throw Net

    Now, assuming a special scout unit will come out, I would actually espouse a different solution, although I know this is probably a long shot: Switch the place of the Mounted Archer and Monster Hunter in the research tree and make the Monster Hunter into a relativly research cheap t3 unit (like the Evangelist). This unit could look like this:

    Cost 120g/30m, 16g maintenance. 60hp, 32mp, 12def/13res. Melee Strike – 12 Physical Damage + 4 Blight Damage, Shoot Blow Pipe – 4 Physcial Damage+6 Blight Damage (can trigger x3). Monster Slayer, Animal Slayer, Giant Slayer, Dragon Slayer, Fey Slayer, Elemental Slayer, Undead Slayer [Moved from Bronze Medal], Summon Slayer [Moved from Silver Medal] Walking Swimming, Irregular, Armored, 20% Fire Resistance, 20% Frost Resistance, 20% Shock Resistance, 40% Blight Resistance.

    Tin Medal: +1 physical melee damage, +6hp, +20% Fire Resistance
    Bronze Medal: +1 physical ranged damage, +1 defense, +6hp, +20% Frost Resistance, True Sight
    Silver Medal: +1 blight melee damage, +1 Resistance, +6hp, +20% Shock Resistance
    Gold Medal: +1 blight ranged damage, +1 defense, +12hp, +20% Blight Resistance, Throw Net

    I know the above is probably theoretical, but this would make the monster hunter an extremely useful t3 unit that remains effective from the early mid-game until the latter stages of the game.

    #122829

    Bouh
    Member

    I don’t like the way this discussion go. Warlord don’t need any way to see invisible units, because he already has extremely powerful armies and can still build priests. For a rogue, concealment and magic are the only ways to fight a warlord because the fight is inherently unfair. If you give everyone true sight, concealment becomes useless.

    #122837

    ExNihil
    Member

    1 unit is hardly *everyone*. ATM the Warlord is very blind indeed, t2 supports are poor scouts. You are generalizing excessively.

    #122846

    Draxynnic
    Member

    2. Shoot Light Crossbow is a really terrible ranged attack even with a +3 bonus. This unit is 80% melee and 20% ranged because of this.

    Actually, I had pretty good success bringing down naga with MHs primarily using the crossbows. The MHs could hold their own in melee, but a stack of MHs could usually bring down at least one naga in the opening volley, and even when melee starts having the option to shoot rather than move in is a valuable one.

    Yes, it’s a hybrid role, but that’s essentially what the MH is aimed towards. It can hold its own in melee against many monsters, but it can also wear them down with crossbows if going into melee is unsuitable. I suspect you’re also underestimating the value of being able to move and shoot at full strength, particularly on a unit that can hold its own (at least briefly) in melee.

    3. Although it is supposed to be a master of poisons and in control of at least some magic, the Monster Hunter has no elemental damage (not even Blight!) at all and no special magic like skills and abilities aside from the slayer traits.

    Where does this come from? I know it’s common among monster hunters in other settings, but there’s no mention of MHs having poison or magic in the AoW3 description. Just being really good at killing monsters with crossbows and greatswords.

    #122854

    ExNihil
    Member

    Actually, I had pretty good success bringing down naga with MHs primarily using the crossbows. The MHs could hold their own in melee, but a stack of MHs could usually bring down at least one naga in the opening volley, and even when melee starts having the option to shoot rather than move in is a valuable one.

    So you are telling me 6 units managed to kill a single unit within a round with 6 effective shots? This is exacty the point – this is a horrible rate.

    Just being really good at killing monsters with crossbows and greatswords.

    And yet, are they? See above for my opinion on the Crossbows, as for the Greatswords – they are ok but are quite vulnerable to blight, as I wrote earlier.

    Where does this come from? I know it’s common among monster hunters in other settings, but there’s no mention of MHs having poison or magic in the AoW3 description. Just being really good at killing monsters with crossbows and greatswords.

    This unit costs exactly like a t2 support unit – it costs 70g and 20m, on what is the mana spent? And yes, I have a problem with the description of this unit in the Tome of Wonders. Compare this with its set of skills and it just can’t be this bland. Also, I personally would like to see the Monster Hunter made into something closer to a Witcher in concept – even if a minor one at that.

    #122860

    ExNihil
    Member

    Also, we shouldn’t forget the Naga Slayer label for Monster Hunter! :).

    #122873

    Bouh
    Member

    1 unit is hardly *everyone*. ATM the Warlord is very blind indeed, t2 supports are poor scouts. You are generalizing excessively.

    I didn’t explained myself very well : MH is a good, fast and versatile unit the warlord will always take at some point. If you give him true sight, it means that only a very bad warlord will ever be caught by invisible units.

    On the other hand, priests being slow and requiring a temple to be built means the warlord have to work to get them, and this is well deserved considering that someone using stealth will usualy don’t stand a chance without stealth.

    If the warlord is vulnerable to stealth units, it’s well deserve IMO as no unit can compete on equal numbers against warlord units.

Viewing 30 posts - 61 through 90 (of 376 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.