[FOLLOWED] WARLORD Balance Discussion

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Balance Suggestions [FOLLOWED] WARLORD Balance Discussion

This topic contains 375 replies, has 42 voices, and was last updated by  Mourioche 6 years, 12 months ago.

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  • #124563

    Anublet90
    Member

    Don’t have particularly much to contribute, but there were two ideas that – to me – sounded like really good solutions to the scouting issue, so I’ll be parroting them.

    – Monster Hunter and Berserker switching places the in the tech-tree. By itself I don’t really see any down-sides to this. Possibly a need to give a very minor buff to the Berserker. The fact that the Monster Hunter can kill most other scouts with relative impunity goes rather well with him coming in later, I think. “Warlords are master tacticians” according to their description, and counter-scout-scouts go quite nicely with the flavor, and the delay in access would only reflect making proper preparations; especially so if they are fighting Sorcerers and/or Arch Druids.

    – Another idea I saw was to give racial Irregular units greater movement speed – though not enough to replace the dedicated scouts, of course. If you combined the upgrade- and creature-research paths you could make this a Warlord-specific bonus, in which case this would go nicely with the Explorer Specialization in compensating for the lack of flight. Maybe even some climate-based movement perks like Arctic Walking or Cave Crawling? These could be race-specific, too.

    Personally, I love the Monster Hunter, so I’d love to see more of him.

    Also, while (sort of) on the topic of fusing tech-trees, you could do something like
    Produce Warbreed + Thoroughbred Mounts = Breeding Programs, or
    Produce Phalanx + Conqueror = Something Groovy, or whatever.

    Note, I’ve been running to and from the computer brain-storming, so I these thoughts are coming kinda willy-nilly.

    #124612

    Anublet90
    Member

    Okay, sorry for the double-post, but I’ll try to express myself more clearly.

    Scouting – So my suggestion would be to alter Raise Militia a bit. Going by the “tactical genius” aspect of the class, re-name the ability to something like “Commission Taskforce” or something, and add race-specific movement bonuses in liked/disliked/hated terrain/climate. For example, the human Civic Guard could gain something like Blight Walking (doesn’t exist yet), while a Draconian Hatchling could get Arctic Walking, and the High Elf Initiate would get Tropical Walking (also doesn’t exist), etc. Obviously this would be a rather situational advantage, so to buff it up there would be the flat boost to movement (somewhere around the 2-boots range), which would work well with the Explorer Specialization in its entirety.

    I’m not sure how powerful this would be if it applied to all Irregulars though, especially if Monster Hunter stays where he is in the tech-tree. If anything, he’d become an outstanding rapid-response force, which, honestly, sounds like a wonderful addition to the Warlord’s mid-game, and flavorfully fitting, considering his versatile nature (though I suppose he is that to some degree already).

    Research – Aside from smacking stuff together, I figured War Effort could be buffed to decrease the penalty from Forced Production, or whatever it’s called. You know, where you cut production down to one turn in exchange for gold and happiness (man, I feel bad just typing that out).

    Now I have to go, so kinks still need to be ironed.

    #124654

    you’d have to cast again during the next/subsequent turn to see if things haven’t’ changed, correct?

    No, it’d stay for a few turns, i.e. if it has a 5 hex radius, on the turn you cast it and the next turn, you see the full radius, then it goes down by one hex radius per turn.

    Instead, I could be using it to cast Last Stand or Lion’s Courage, or summon militia? That seems a bit of conundrum to me.

    Kind of the point. Hard decisions to make there. With a normal Scout you need to summon it and pay upkeep. With the scanner you have no upkeep, and a larger casting area, i.e. for example, cast it within 10 hexes of leader, whereas a Scout can only be summoned within 3 hexes of city centre or 1 hex of hero. Scouts can be detected, scanner would be invisible. If you were approaching the enemy city, it’d actually be more effective scouting to “scan” the area than it would to send in a scout.

    f they were to put maybe a guard of 2 irregulars on treasure pickups, it would complete the changes that have started with this latest DLC and patch. And I think it would be good for the game as a whole. Scouts are just tied to *far* too much, as they boost early economies by an absurd amount, and allow you to rapidly take territory that should be out of reach.

    That was my thinking behind putting defenders on. It would help the Warlord quite a bit imho as Call militia would allow you to pump out militia quicker than wisps (iirc) so the Warlord would be able to grab those freebies at about the same rate as others. Others would still be better at actual *scouting* but the initial resource boost they get would be neutered.

    So rather than considering giving the WL a decent scout of some sort, you guys are now pondering how to nerf all scouts in the game and change treasure pickups just to fit the “Scanner” ability, which IMO will still give the WL a highly circumscribed scouting ability in any case and leave it relativly weakened?

    I am all for novel solutions, but this solution seems to me to be frankly silly – this requires the readjustment of multiple factors, some of which I, and I suspect a great many people, don’t find a problem with (e.g. treasure pickups, which can be configured in a menu now), in order to accommodate a new mechanic, which would still not really give the WL the scouting abilities it needs.

    This may be hard for you to imagine but some of sort don’t get tunnel vision and are able to see the situation from a more holistic point of view.

    Warlord suffers in early game, and the early scouting is key to this. Early Scouts for everyone else have the massive advantages of:

    a) easily massed armies on location (effectiveness differs between a wisp and a crow, but everyone but the Warlord gets this.)

    b) easy ability to know what is going on in and around a player’s area (WL suffers here, but can start to compete with death march and seafaring.)

    c) easy access to pickups that boost your start economy massively, that the Warlord just does not get, due to (b). As A Rogue, I recall getting 2 piles of gold, 2 scrolls, production resources and 2 scrolls within the 1st 10 turns. As a Warlord you might get the odd Cartographer’s tent and nearby scroll etc, but you cannot compete here.

    EDIT: I forgot (d) counter scouting – solutions here include a watchtower lite unit, or moving MH earlier.

    The proposal to put token defenders on pickups would mean that players would have to commit a bit more to get those resources, so would negate (c) because as Garresh correctly points out, the function of a Scout should be to provide eyes and ears, not free gold etc.

    It’d go some way to equalise the starting conditions of the classes.

    Secondly, the only way to make Warlord scouting truly effective/competitive would be to literally give it the same scout as everyone else, and that is not a solution I would favour. Scouts are good, not just for grabbing free stuff (which to me seems the silly bit) but for being mobile watchtowers, so unless you give the Warlord an identical mobile watchtower, we need to consider alternative solutions to the lack of a dedicated Scout.

    One solution is to give is a sort of lesser mobile Watchtower, a.k.a. the pathfinder unit which would have about 32 or maybe even 36 mp, but really rubbish combat abilities, but swimming and forestry, so they are faster on roads but less all terrain that other scouts. This could indeed work, but it’d still be always a lesser unit.

    Another, which explores the function of scouting, is the “scanner” ability I outlined.

    If you were to combine scanner + token defenders, you’d get a situation where the starting position for all classes is competitive, by which I mean all classes would have viable options here, whereas one out of the 6 is really borked at start.

    Warlords would be able to scan their surrounding area well, possibly almost as well as cherub or crow swarms, but those cherubs and crows would be more active on the strategic map, so you have a difference there.

    #124672

    Garresh
    Member

    BBB wrote a good explanation of the changes, but let me add a quick addendum. The primary reason behind token defenders on treasure piles is not to standardize the classes, or overhaul the game. Rather, the intent behind this is actually to keep the classes distinct. If it wasn’t for the horrendous economic disparities, the rogue vs warlord matchup would actually be a very interesting game of cat and mouse, brains vs brawn, or whatever contrast you want to go with.

    Rather than seeing warlords buffed in the obvious scout way, adding token defenders *preserves their weakness*, which is crappy intel, while not gimping them in other unfair ways. To add token defenders means that warlords will remain effectively blind in many ways, while at the same time being able to produce an overwhelming amount of force and to to project extremely well. I’ve actually been playing some games vs warlords the last few nights, and let me tell you those horse archers are terrifying. I’ve actually had the pleasure of seeing what warlords are capable of now that their units are all very strong. In one case, I was actually shocked that Jomungur actually set a trap for me, and USED MY OWN INTEL against me by feigning an overextension, then using death march to strike my split forces with overwhelming mounted death, then got away before I could muster any sort of counterattack.

    I’ve never enjoyed losing so much as I did when I saw myself out-maneuvered by the faster and deadlier horse archers that warlords have available to them now. In truth, I feel that if warlords gained access to a flying scout they might actually become overpowered. But far worse, they’d become generic. Warlords are really cool, and they’re so close to being in a great spot. If we just remove all their weaknesses, we take the easy way out. Token defenses preserves their identity, without crippling them. I fail to see how this is a bad idea. I mean even BBB, who is kind of one of the few warlord guys left is backing it up.

    Also, on a more selfish note, I’m rather looking forward to the warlord vs rogue matchup getting turned on its head in the coming weeks. Those horse archers with the warlord death march are going to make any tactical raids or strikes very difficult for us rogues. We may be able to get our teams into enemy territory easily, but can we actually raze a city? And, more importantly, will we be able to get out alive? There’s too much potential here for interesting counterplay, and I want it. I’ve seen what a warlord is capable of in clever hands, and damnit I like it.

    #124681

    I’ve seen what a warlord is capable of in clever hands, and damnit I like it.

    I keep saying it, but if you go with Air adept you almost always will have Zephyr by turn 10 – focus on building labs (as opposed to the normal builder’s hall approach – the builder adds + 20 production which is useful for 1 turning infantry but not so much for archers, which would still be 2 turned, ditto labs) and concentrate your forces to get as many surrenders as possible, and loot bandits’ camp.

    You can usually get RP 40 quite quickly and CP 30 as well, so 2 turn awesome scouts. You forego quick unit research in favour of using basic racial units. You will end up going for the Builder’s Hall if you want to go for Cavalry, or when you start city expands, as the extra hammers there + BH mean you can usually 1 turn archers or at least 2 turn cav/berserkers.

    If you get good RP then you give yourself so many more options.

    Double Air + wild adept = seeker, haste (this on seekered, sprinting horse archer = guaranteed flanking and general death), zephyr, an okay nuke, baby Elementals.

    Double air + creation = as above but with heal instead of baby Elementals

    Air, creation, wild adepts = heal, bless (with last stand = awesome), seeker, zephyr, baby Elemental. Probably the most flexible combo.

    Throw in partisan for concealed zephyrs and cheap inns and the possibility to troll with your infantry :).

    Air + Double earth = seeker, zephyr, slow, stone skin, a decent nuke

    Go Humans to shave off some production turns or go Elf to steadily get an edge on the RP, and also get the best Horse Archers.

    Yeah Warlord is slowly inching towards being competitive again, like how it more or less was in the vanilla game, when you could realistically pull of a Cavalry or t3 rush (before the t3 building and the warhalls ending up costing so much lol.)

    Token defenses preserves their identity, without crippling them. I fail to see how this is a bad idea. I mean even BBB, who is kind of one of the few warlord guys left is backing it up.

    Funny, I thought I started it lol, 😛 from Ayenara’s comment:

    I was talking with Kozzie, and came to the conclusion that if the treasure pickups were fewer/weaker, then WL would be a lot stronger. You guys agree?

    So, instead of reducing pickups in general, just make everyone work harder to get them.

    I think this one change would actually be much easier than designing, implementing and testing a brand new unit.

    #124683

    Those horse archers with the warlord death march are going to make any tactical raids or strikes very difficult for us rogues.

    In the late game, a few Warbreeds doing this, then engaging in a fight, are going to ruin your day, as they heal in combat, so they could attack and just not move for 3 turns and they’d be healed up…

    #124685

    ExNihil
    Member

    @BBB,

    I’m glad to hear you resolved your optical problems- I never thought it was tunnel vision though but rather simply poor eyesight. I’m also sorry to see you take criticism personally- I remind you that you have espoused and called for a walking scout producible in cities quite a bit before. The fact you are enamored with your scanner idea doesn’t make it any better. As I said before treasure pickup guard might be toggled on or off, but this is only a partial element of scouting. I suggest you consult the first post of the previous page regarding the other functions of a scout as well.

    Secondly, the only way to make Warlord scouting truly effective/competitive would be to literally give it the same scout as everyone else, and that is not a solution I would favour. Scouts are good, not just for grabbing free stuff (which to me seems the silly bit) but for being mobile watchtowers, so unless you give the Warlord an identical mobile watchtower, we need to consider alternative solutions to the lack of a dedicated Scout.

    Nope. AD has t1 animals that function as scouts. The entire discussion has been of giving the WL a walking scouting unit, not a flying/floating one, that is buildable or summonable (like raise militia) in cities – not a magical unit. As an alternative to doing this I proposed modifying the t1 irregulars or using the Monster Hunters. And I of course support the introduction of a new t1 scouting unit that will a walking scout of some sort – for instance “tracker”.

    I also think it might be cool for the WL to get a mounted scouting unit – something like an Indian tracker.

    #124694

    I’m glad to hear you resolved your optical problems- I never thought it was tunnel vision though but rather simply poor eyesight.

    Actually it was directed at you, with your tendency to fixate on one thing and then talk it to death. And you are a fine one to talk about taking criticism personally.

    I remind you that you have espoused and called for a walking scout producible in cities quite a bit before.

    Indeed yes, for a scout-lite option, which isn’t off the table and which is still a viable and potentially interesting solution. That doesn’t mean I can’t change my mind or combine ideas.

    It’s a discussion on the Warlord in general so any and all ideas should be explored, without fixing on any one in particular.

    My philosophy on the Warlord is simple:

    Find a way to make the Warlord early game viable in ways that it is not right now, without copying other classes where possible.

    That could mean giving them extra stuff in early game, or reducing the effectiveness of other people’s early game.

    It seems abundantly obvious that once a warlord gets rolling it is a formidable class, but that it is hard to get rolling, ergo inherently less flexible than pretty much every other class there. This isn’t necessarily totally a bad thing, as it makes the classes assymetrical, but at the moment there is too much going against Warlord starts

    Nope. AD has t1 animals that function as scouts.

    No to what? AD gets units that act as mobile watchtowers, and can be massed. The only movement the AD doesn’t get early on from scouts is mountaineering and floating, the scouts can travel far in forests or can swim. AD gets pretty decent scouting compared to the WL, and is flexible to boot. I’d argue they get the best initial summoning as it is easily massable so can help clear well, and has the potential to scale as well (Spider Queens, Mature Serpents).

    it’s not as good as pure scouting, and it quite assymetrical in that sense, along with Sorcerers, as these 2 can mass good clearers early but the dedicated Scouts are better at scouting.

    That element of assymetry is what inspired the “scanner” idea.

    #124713

    So, instead of reducing pickups in general, just make everyone work harder to get them.

    I think this one change would actually be much easier than designing, implementing and testing a brand new unit.

    All that, just from an extra 2 or so t-1 irregulars, or an infantry and an archer? I suppose it makes a lot of sense, as the other resource things are guarded as well.

    I also had a thought about the scanner that would fit with the warlord’s heavy “personal stack” focus, like their Comitatus or whatever.

    It would sort of be the opposite of pathfinder: whereas the Archdruid leader/hero personally travels over all terrain, the Warlord should inspire fear in the local peasants, and make them all come to him.

    So this would give the warlord a vision range upgrade, but more importantly, also give the warlord an unfogged, but dark, zone. The warlord would know the structures in the area, but not the units there.

    Essentially, the warlord would have “real” medieval intelligence un-boosted by drones, or magic crows/animals and other scouts. Around their person, the scouting would be somewhat better than everyone else’s, with the balancing factor that they can’t see armies in that zone.

    In a different area, they’d be stuck with racial irregulars and death march.

    #124732

    Anublet90
    Member

    What if Raise Militia gave a Movement boost/-ability to the created Irregular? Seems like a nice balance between granting a scout without over-powering the class, and retaining the ability’s usefulness later in the game. Triumph also wouldn’t need to create a new unit or ability, and the scouting issue is solved to at least some degree.

    Maybe it could even grant a Medal if the Population hit was made slightly bigger? I really like the idea of a counter-scout scout, but I’m biased so I may be going overboard. I also like that idea I had last night, where the Movement ability would be a hated climate. That way you’d have the option of going deep into enemy territory, but the Medal granted by Raise Militia would be partially mitigated by the massive Morale penalty, so you can’t just go scout-hunting in enemy territory.

    All this combined could even make a Expansionist/Explorer/Partisan build viable, which sounds kinda neat.

    TL;DR Make Raise Militia a semi-dedicated scouting spell, re-name it, make the Pop-hit bigger and give some boosts to the created Irregular. Or at least something along those lines. This way you’d also have a(nother?) class that makes racial Irregulars usable instead of T1 Infantry and Archers.

    —-

    As for the Scanner, I’m not a fan. At least not as a primary scouting ability. I could see it as some sort of supplementary skill, though. On the other hand, given the tech-tree situation I probably wouldn’t research it if that was all it gave me, so maybe throw a +1 Vision Range to Fliers in? (Something-something-overboard.)

    #124762

    Bouh
    Member

    I think guarding treasures would be an excellent idea ! This would solve the biggest drawback of the lack of scout of the warlord (the economy disadvantage) by evening classes on this matter and this matter only. I think that with this the warlord wouldn’t even need any scout.

    #124779

    Ricminator
    Member

    Especially since there are more roaming independents who will eat the other scouts. The other classes already got some sort of a nerf there. So guarding treasures might work indeed.

    #124788

    So this would give the warlord a vision range upgrade, but more importantly, also give the warlord an unfogged, but dark, zone. The warlord would know the structures in the area, but not the units there.

    I had to look up comitatus, so ty for some education.

    Are you proposing that the “scanner” ability shows the structures in the f.o.w (so similar to areas you’ve uncovered before but you aren’t present in,) but not immediate vision?

    In other words revealing an area, but not the units therein, and presumably doesn’t fade either, so the WL could half uncover quite a lot of area, getting intel on the terrain and cities etc, but not picking stuff up?

    That could actually work really well imho, and sidesteps the issues of being a Falcon whisperer.

    What if Raise Militia gave a Movement boost/-ability to the created Irregular? Seems like a nice balance between granting a scout without over-powering the class, and retaining the ability’s usefulness later in the game.

    My initial thinking here is that with Explorer you will get some ridiculous mp irregulars/militia, as Explorer adds +8 so you will end up with 40 mp irregulars, if they get even + 4 mp at the start.

    And + 4 mp at start won’t help very much imho (except for Spearmen who would be able to sprint an extra hex) so you’d need to make it + 8 at least to make them useful as Scouts, in which case you might as well replace Call Militia with the pathfinder unit that has been discussed, who would have 32 mp and forestry+swimming.

    Or, better yet, just leave Call Militia alone (although I wouldn’t mind if it were upgradeable to you could call up to 6 at a time for 50 cp, i.e. much more efficient the more cp you have) and have the next unit come out be Monster Hunters, so the WL gets a scout and anti-scout unit just slightly later than everyone else gets their scout unit (and if you start with Call militia and the Rogue player doesn’t start with crows researched, they’d come out more or less the same time.)

    I quite like the idea of independent resource defenders and earlier MH. That alone would tilt the balance a bit towards WL.

    #124865

    In other words revealing an area, but not the units therein, and presumably doesn’t fade either, so the WL could half uncover quite a lot of area, getting intel on the terrain and cities etc, but not picking stuff up?

    yes, that would be it. I was actually thinking of the scanner as a passive upgrade that gave the warlord the dark vision a few hexes out from their normal vision. The idea being that they receive intelligence from nearby fearful persons as the Warlord progresses.

    You could also do it as something like the spell jamner, where you pay gold/mana for it to work, but no cp.

    An alternative to the scanner would allow the warlord, for the cost of a normal summon scout, to erect a lesser watchtower without a builder. It would be the first warlord research upgrade, “beacon”, and would allow irregular units to construct beacons. That way, the warlord would have good, but inflexible, scouting.

    Your irregular would go out to find stuff, and build a tower, thus illuminating more things, whereupon the irregular would troop over there to find the pickups/build more towers.

    The disadvantage would be that you couldn’t afford to scout everywhere, like the other classes, but your advantage would be continuous line of sight where you did have beacons (unless someone destroyed them, of course).

    It would also allow the Beacons of Gondor to be lit in a customized map….

    #124884

    alf978
    Member

    Okay, I greatly enjoy all this discussion going on, and it got me thinking.
    And btw, @BBB thanks for clarifying the scanner concept for me further!
    I also like the idea of weak defenders on the pick up locations..

    Here’s something that got me pondering this whole issue that may add a new facet to the discussion. So let me just throw this out there and see if you guys think it has any merit.

    That fact almost all WL units have at least 32 mp, iirc, implies to me that the intent behind the class units was for increased mobility, especially in TC, which I find great.
    But what if, we could leverage that to an greater extent on the strategic level as well; and it may ameliorate the scouting issue at the same time.
    What if the WL could research an early spell, that would give irregulars, infantry and pikemen, a temporary forestry, mountaineering & wetland walking for 2 turns. Say for 15CP, with an upkeep of 30 mana for the second turn (can be adjusted as needed). Sort of a mini explorer spell that is temporary in nature, call it Wilderness guides/training or something to that effect…

    The idea would be, that with the scanner like ability you can discover the resource/city/target, and together with death march and walking improvements, you could compete to get there expeditiously. But at a relatively steep cost and only for a short duration. It would also play on the mobility of the WL units specifically, and add a new dimension strategically for your non-cavalry, land based units beyond just scouting.

    I like that it expands the WL capabilities beyond just the early game, but be useful in midgame and possibly later, is mana based, and plays on his inherent concept (already existing increased base mp, Death March, etc.), differentiating it further from the DN as a slow lumbering war behemoth…

    What do you guys think?

    #124909

    Chrys, your idea is awesome.

    #124913

    ArcaneSeraph
    Member

    An alternative to the scanner would allow the warlord, for the cost of a normal summon scout, to erect a lesser watchtower without a builder. It would be the first warlord research upgrade, “beacon”, and would allow irregular units to construct beacons. That way, the warlord would have good, but inflexible, scouting.

    I really like this idea. It doesn’t make them just the same as everyone else but lets them see (and maintain sight in) a fairly large area. Your initial “scout” wouldn’t see as much but constructing this structure will let subsequent scouts find the gold. It wouldn’t be as good as a flying scout but still would help out quite a bit.

    #124957

    Fenraellis
    Member

    When you say lesser watchtower, are you thinking of less vision range(5-6, instead of 7)? Also, would they be at a reduce price, around 20-30(leaning towards the latter), in that case?

    #124959

    Garresh
    Member

    That is an insanely good idea with the watchtowers. May I take this time to suggest that forts and towers should have a 1 turn timer on razing? I’m all for my ninja raze strikes, but currently it’s a bit absurd.

    #124979

    Fenraellis
    Member

    My least favorite is the fly-by Heart razing, on the few occasions where I haven’t had a Heart defended for whatever reason. Most poignantly when I’ve even ran at a unit on my Heart, had a battle in the Heart’s tactical map, then had the Heart be razed after the battle after I won.

    #124983

    Anublet90
    Member

    Absolutely adore the idea, except I’d probably name them “Sentry Post”, or something; “Beacon” sounds like you’re trying to alert the enemy.

    So would this apply to racial Irregulars, specifically Raise Militia Irregulars, or plain just any Irregular? ‘Cause that last one sounds pretty risky.

    #125016

    @ Chrys, would there be a cost for these beacons/sentry posts?

    #125017

    And how would they compare to watchtowers in terms of cost and vision?

    #125049

    NuMetal
    Member

    And how would they compare to watchtowers in terms of cost and vision?

    I guess that’s for Triumph to decide, for us to try out and for them to tweak 😉

    I love the idea by the way! +1

    #125066

    When you say lesser watchtower, are you thinking of less vision range(5-6, instead of 7)? Also, would they be at a reduce price, around 20-30(leaning towards the latter), in that case?

    yeah, pretty much that exactly.

    And how would they compare to watchtowers in terms of cost and vision?

    @ Chrys, would there be a cost for these beacons/sentry posts?

    what fen thought.

    #125073

    Hmm…so the irregular becomes a builder -lite?

    And the WL would use gold for actual watchtowers, instead of mana for mobile watchtowers…

    Could be very interesting indeed.

    #125123

    ExNihil
    Member

    Well, I will play the Devil’s advocate (not that I need much acting here).

    I think this is between an awkward to a terrible idea :). I’ll explain why:

    1. As I wrote several times earlier when discussing the Raise Militia issue, one of the WL’s main problem is its extreme gold reliance, which during the early to early-mid game is debilitating. Thus trying to resolve the scouting issue with an ability that demands significant gold expenditure would be both not actually solve that issue and make the gold problem even worse.

    2. This will only resolve a part of the scouting issue and will not really address: a. map exploration, b. scout battles, c. treasure site softening, d. mobile spying, e. harassment and last but not least f. treasure pickups (don’t ignore the other points and focus only on this when shouting I’m wrong, those of you who will OFC).

    3. This has the almost paradoxical potential of being, on the one hand, a big weakness for the WL player and a significant irritant – as these “beacons” will either require active protection or will be taken over like Watchtowers, and on the other hand, being an IMBA and OP element in later stages of the game as the WL would be able to actively monitor the map in a way the supersedes all other classes. The latter point would happen at much the same time as the WL’s already OP capabilities, thus making the WL even more IMBA in the long run.

    @alf978,

    I think the proposals you made regarding Raise Militia are constructive and good. I think that in tweaking the Raise Militia spell the WL can receive some terrain and vision range upgrades for its irregular units that will use the mana register to support these units, at least partially.

    I also still think that a mounted scouting unit – a t1 irregular mounted unit with some good terrain buffs and excellent vision can be a unique addition here. The nice thing about this, aside from being unique, is that it would be the only scout to receive a serious buff in later stages through Thoroughbred Mounts. This unit can be animated as a lone rider rather than a group thereof, and I’d think about it as a specially trained tracker from some unknown minor race – something like a Navajo rider but using a fantasy race. But this is OFC completely optional, as it could be a racial scouting unit as well.

    #125144

    1. As I wrote several times earlier when discussing the Raise Militia issue, one of the WL’s main problem is its extreme gold reliance, which during the early to early-mid game is debilitating. Thus trying to resolve the scouting issue with an ability that demands significant gold expenditure would be both not actually solve that issue and make the gold problem even worse.

    or you could use mana, since it would be a kind of “eternal flame” type thing.

    2. This will only resolve a part of the scouting issue and will not really address: a. map exploration, b. scout battles, c. treasure site softening, d. mobile spying, e. harassment and last but not least f. treasure pickups (don’t ignore the other points and focus only on this when shouting I’m wrong, those of you who will OFC).

    I fail to see why: if an irregular makes its normal irregular movement, and then makes the beacon (instant produced, but only one per turn), it will see as far (or further) than a crow or whatever. The limitation is when crossing forests/mountains/water. However, this limitation falls away for monster hunters, who are also irregulars (thus can build beacons).

    As for Scout battles, the warlord can spam irregulars like nobody’s business, so they’d send them out in pairs or triplets.

    And the whole point is that you don’t have mobility or as much harassment capability: this is asymmetric, rather than symmetric, balance.

    3. This has the almost paradoxical potential of being, on the one hand, a big weakness for the WL player and a significant irritant – as these “beacons” will either require active protection or will be taken over like Watchtowers, and on the other hand, being an IMBA and OP element in later stages of the game as the WL would be able to actively monitor the map in a way the supersedes all other classes. The latter point would happen at much the same time as the WL’s already OP capabilities, thus making the WL even more IMBA in the long run.

    crows are vulnerable to animal slaying/panic from jesters, and every scout has weaknesses. The aforementioned irregular spam option will mitigate the weakness, and it doesn’t really make the beacon useless: it also functions as a “detector”, so you can see what direction people are coming from.

    The Archdruid has a better option already, what with detection and vision on all domain. It would be supremely expensive in mana or gold (or some combination) to have vision everywhere, and you wouldn’t want to give the enemy the ability to have that.

    late game, beacons would serve to mark out invasion routes and to be “flanking detectors” to prevent people from coming the other way. You would also have periodic fortresses/cities supporting beacon chains, so you’d have troops to respond to incursions.

    It fits really, because it lets the warlord make Hadrian’s wall/ late roman defensive lines where you have irregulars/phalanx at the front, and horse archers/warbreed/manticore riders able to respond rapidly.

    #125147

    The gold dependence thing is a valid concern.

    One way you could get around that is by making the beacons/sentry posts considerably worse than watchtowers and making them mana based, and in turn making them have true sight, OR, require them to have an irregular in the beacon in order to work.

    That latter could be basically a stance for the irregular (or, in theory, any Warlord unit?) sacrificing mp but allowing them further vision, at a mana cost.

    I.E. select unit, next to the camp icon that removes them from the movement queue there is another icon which is “form sentry position” which costs x mana, and requires full mp to use and then takes all mp away for that turn, or however many turns would be required to balance it.

    In a weird way it basically a way to toggle extra vision on an irregular at the cost of mana, so mana to get the irregular, then mana to get it’s vision up, or think of it as toggleable watchtowers lol. It also means each sentry position/beacon has innate defence.

    You could put out a screen of sentry positions if you wanted.

    Obvious synergy with partisan here…

    The tech to do that could be called Overwatch or something and be the same that unlocks Chrys’ hero abilities.

    This option would attach greater importance to units.

    #125160

    I.E. select unit, next to the camp icon that removes them from the movement queue there is another icon which is “form sentry position” which costs x mana, and requires full mp to use and then takes all mp away for that turn, or however many turns would be required to balance it.

    In a weird way it basically a way to toggle extra vision on an irregular at the cost of mana, so mana to get the irregular, then mana to get it’s vision up, or think of it as toggleable watchtowers lol. It also means each sentry position/beacon has innate defence.

    You could put out a screen of sentry positions if you wanted.

    Obvious synergy with partisan here…

    The tech to do that could be called Overwatch or something and be the same that unlocks Chrys’ hero abilities.

    This option would attach greater importance to units.

    That is rather interesting. So you’d send a batch of irregulars, one would “construct” the sentry post at various points, and the others would occupy them to make them permanent, if necessary.

    If you didn’t, you would still have revealed cities and sites and whatnot, so there would be some benefit.

    linking this to a hero upgrade for the warlord, it would be nice to give them a somewhat better version, since you would have to both research and unlock it (presumably after field medic).

    Lets call it “bivouac”, and have it just make a sentry post for the irregular, but for the warlord, they get both a vision boost and the little palisade spikes, plus a small defense bonus.

    rather than costing mana or making a permanent structure, it would cost mp, and be mobile: every time the warlord moved, it would vanish, but they could rebuild it if they had enough strategic mp.

    This would give the Warlord some interesting options: they could either move normally, move a little more slowly but with the extra vision/defense, or use death march to take damage, but move far and have the bonus.

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