What makes the frostlings balanced?

We’ve moved over to the paradox forums. Please come visit us there to discuss:
You can still read the collective wisdom - and lolz - of the community here, but posting is no longer possible.

Home Forums Update v1.5 – Open Beta Balance What makes the frostlings balanced?

This topic contains 50 replies, has 16 voices, and was last updated by  Fenraellis 7 years, 1 month ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 1 through 30 (of 51 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #173632

    Diair
    Member

    Looking at the preview videos Explorminate has published today, I’m sort of baffled that the forstlings are so strong. Their t1 irregular has a 2 turn stun with 50% success rate against early game camps! Activation seems more reliable than inflict stun, and that can only be acquired by sorcerors mid game or by elves after gaining a large amount of xp on their storm sisters. And the mammoth rider! It has the HP and damage of a tier3 for a tiny drop in defense. and a tiny drop in movement (still makes them as fast as dwarves…)

    So… Since I’ve not seen a thread regarding this here, what makes them balanced? My game is on GoG, so I haven’t been able to play with it myself, but I’d love to hear the Beta testers’ opinion on it.

    #173650

    Zaskow
    Member

    So… Since I’ve not seen a thread regarding this here, what makes them balanced?

    I noticed they have low HP.

    And the mammoth rider!

    Maybe, they are expensive.

    #173651

    Dagoth Ur
    Member

    I noticed they have a lot of dual damage channels so they probably won’t be that strong later on. Plus 40% Fire Weakness is kind of a lot.

    Mammoth Riders with Martial Arts and Thoroughbred Mounts are going to be good though.

    #173667

    Epaminondas
    Member

    It’s the tendency of game developers to slightly over-power new factions/units with DLC to entice “on the fence” buyers. So it’s natural; in fact, I was a bit surprised that Halflings were so mediocre in this context. (But then it’s hard to justify over-powered Halflings from a convention/lore perspective.)

    It will be balanced after a few patches, after forum uproar – if there indeed are im-balances.

    #173685

    yeah, fire is really annoying for frostlings, although they do have frozen flames from the white witch, which mitigates it.

    But that doesn’t come out right away, and when it does, it is a bit of a limitation on the frostlings. After all, their raiders have default 32 mp, which allows them to support the mammoth riders. Withe Witches slow them down (unless you are a frostling archdruid, but then you have to forgo class based fire protection).

    They also lack a t-3 heavy hitter: the Frost Queen, while useful, is a genuine support unit that has to be protected by the royal guard.

    hp and defense values are relatively low for their role, so anyone with good archers or fire has a super useful tool against them. They also lack innate healing.

    ultimately, frostlings play a lot like rogues: they’ll always have a trick to pull, but if it doesn’t work, well, goodbye!

    And Race Governance gives the original races plenty of neat things, so everyone feels both magical and powerful.

    #173724

    Fenraellis
    Member

    Since the stats have mostly been seen already, I’ll just say it here:
    Mammoth Rider:
    — 110 Gold Cost (10 more than Black Knight, the next closest)
    — 80 HP
    — 32 MP
    — 9 Def (next closest T2 Cav is 11 Def, this is NOT insignificant against ranged damage and Defense-checks in particular)
    — 9 Res
    — 15 Melee
    — Wall Crushing
    — Charge + Devastating Charge
    — 100% Frost Protection
    — 40% Fire Weakness
    — (sundry)

    So, high HP and high damage, but slower than all cavalry except Dwarves, but also grievously vulnerable to physical damage(especially ranged and defense-checks) compared to other Cavalry, as well as being the most expensive. They’ll even only get to 11 Base Def, meaning they can only get +2 Def from Guard Mode, where 11+ Base Def Cavalry will get +3 Def from Guard Mode once they hit 13+ Base Def. Oh, and not Armored, so they can’t benefit from Enchanted Armory, or the Dreadnought’s Solid Engineering and Great Blacksmith upgrades.

    16 Def unranked for Dwarf Board Riders, and eventually 18 at Elite(22 in Guard Mode) is a daunting consideration.

    For what it’s worth, Black Knights are still often scarier when it comes to damage, due to 13 + War Cry + Polearm(against certain units) applying to multiple attacks, compared to 15 + 4 from Devastating Charge on a single attack. Both have Charge, so I’m ignoring that. That, and the 12 Def and Armored of Black Knight make them tough, too.

    —–

    As others have said:
    — 40% Fire Weakness is a very firm weakness of Frostlings.
    — Their Frost Weapons trait for fighting units aside from their Mammoth Rider(not Supports or Archers or T1 Irregulars aside from their Ice Scaper) gives their units -4 Physical Melee and +5 Frost Melee. While the total damage is higher, and hybrid damage has its particular strengths(minimum 1 damage/channel and strong against sub-10 defenses), hybrid damage is also known for having its particular weaknesses against higher defensive values and protections(Frost Protection is still more common than Physical).

    On a side note, Frostlings suffer against Necromancer units, which have innate 40% or 60% Frost Protection for the Summons, and all Ghouls/Undead have 40% Frost Protection innately as well. Frostling Ghouls have a combined 100% Frost Protection, making them an especially troubling opponent for living Frostlings to compete against.
    Of course, the combined 60% Fire Weakness of Frostling Ghouls is terrible as well. Yes, Embalmed provides +40% Fire Protection, but other races get access to that, too.

    #173734

    vota dc
    Member

    Their ghoul archer has 7 defense, should be 6 since isn’t armored.

    #173738

    Fenraellis
    Member

    Flamers and Swarm Darters have 7 Def.
    Harpoon Throwers, Jesters, Shredders, Razorbows, and Longbowmen have 8 Def. Only the latter is Armored.
    Human Archers and Dwarf Crossbowmen have 9 Def.

    The fact that Elven Longbowmen only have 8 Def is a sign of their relative ‘frailty’, when their are four other races that have the same Def while unarmored.

    #173769

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    Chrys and Fen have said most of what’s important. Frostlings have very good control and paralysis abilities, but as soon as something pops up that does fire damage (draconians), or resists frost (undead), then things can go downhill quickly. They also don’t have a strong melee T3, like the other races. The frost queen is very good, but it relies on gimmicks to be effective, if those gimmicks fail, it’s in trouble. The mammoth rider has a major weakness too in that it relies on high hit points to stay alive. This is great in the first few battles, but it can take a long time for that HP to regenerate when it only gets 5hp back per turn.

    It’s the tendency of game developers to slightly over-power new factions/units with DLC to entice “on the fence” buyers. So it’s natural; in fact, I was a bit surprised that Halflings were so mediocre in this context. (But then it’s hard to justify over-powered Halflings from a convention/lore perspective.)

    This is true as well. We need new DLC races to be exciting and interesting, with new mechanics that makes them stand out and be fun to play with. It’s very hard to put these things in without having imbalances, and OP traits that need to be ironed out. If you think Frostling is bad, you should have seen the original versions of some of the Tigran units. The sphinx had Fear Strike at one point (it could make units panic by hitting them), making it the most effective T3 unit in the game by quite a wide margin until it was nerfed.

    Also, at one point Halflings had +1 resistance and -1 defense, instead of the 20% physical weakness they have now. They blew pretty much everything else out of the water.

    #173794

    Gyor
    Member

    So the units with Frost Weapons are Snowscaper, Royal Guard, Raider, Frostling Crusader, Frostling Exalted, Frostling Assassin, Frostling Monster Hunter, Frostling Bezerker, Frostling Phlanx, Frostling Manticore Rider, Frostling Warbreed.

    #173802

    madmac
    Member

    It’s funny to me to see people worried about Frostlings, because they were actually pretty well balanced from day one of the beta. They’ve been tweaked here and there but no one ever really had any serious issues with them.

    Heck, I think they came out net buffed since then.

    #173805

    Ravenholme
    Member

    It’s funny to me to see people worried about Frostlings, because they were actually pretty well balanced from day one of the beta. They’ve been tweaked here and there but no one ever really had any serious issues with them.

    Heck, I think they came out net buffed since then.

    Yeah, I’m noticing that a lot of the flak seems to be coming from the fact that Throw Ice ball seemed so effective, when that was mostly down to Inflict Chill being procced by White Witches which was giving the Ice Scapers a boost to the chance of Frozen being inflicted.

    It was a synergistic effect, and one that (sadly) the guy playing from eXploriminate happened upon by accident rather than by design.

    Meanwhile, the Tigran Theocrat game was balanced enough that no one is really complaining about them.

    #173839

    Gyor
    Member

    The Succubus’ curse ability would have the same effect.

    #173855

    ShouKim
    Member

    The t1 seemed to be pretty strong in the videos, but im confident in the beta testers and developers to keep it under control :D, im sure if theres something op they will notice it :).

    Im gettin more scared of the elite witches tho : D..

    It will take some time to adapt to the new stuff anyway before beeing able to judge how strong it is:), looking forward to do so ^^

    #173905

    Enforcer
    Member

    I think the Mamonth riders are OK, but that freeze from snow balls is just too much. I think the chance should be tuned down a bit.

    #173908

    madmac
    Member

    I think the Mamonth riders are OK, but that freeze from snow balls is just too much. I think the chance should be tuned down a bit.

    Snowball is, typically, around a 40% chance to freeze a T1 unit. Just in simple mathmatics, that is kind of terrible, especially when you start calculating success chance against better units.

    They are stronger against Orcs, and Tigrans because of low resist/cold vulnerability but that’s only to be expected. Conversely they are utterly useless against units with good resist or cold protection.

    By all means, when the expansion is released build a bunch of Snowscapers and try to break the game in half with them, but rest assured there’s a reason most of only use them as garrison or filler units.

    #173928

    Yep. Harpooners are actually the stars of the frosting early game. They can immobilize non shielded infantry and other units pretty easily, and do frost damage to high defense units. They are also good anti machine units.

    #174050

    Enforcer
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Enforcer wrote:</div>
    I think the Mamonth riders are OK, but that freeze from snow balls is just too much. I think the chance should be tuned down a bit.

    Snowball is, typically, around a 40% chance to freeze a T1 unit. Just in simple mathmatics, that is kind of terrible, especially when you start calculating success chance against better units.

    They are stronger against Orcs, and Tigrans because of low resist/cold vulnerability but that’s only to be expected. Conversely they are utterly useless against units with good resist or cold protection.

    By all means, when the expansion is released build a bunch of Snowscapers and try to break the game in half with them, but rest assured there’s a reason most of only use them as garrison or filler units.

    Keep in mind, however, that other racial T1 irregulars can’t do even remotely close things in combat. For example Civic Guards or Spearmen just have some mediocre damage abilities, and that’s it.

    #174140

    madmac
    Member

    Keep in mind, however, that other racial T1 irregulars can’t do even remotely close things in combat. For example Civic Guards or Spearmen just have some mediocre damage abilities, and that’s it.

    And? Most irregulars don’t cost 50 gold, either, and the majority of them were or are getting buffed anyway. Civic Guard for example, can get the throw net ability and still have solid stats on top, while Orc Spearmen are and always have been one of the strongest irregulars, even more so with Warcry for powerful flanking attacks.

    SnowScapers are just not actually very strong. The turns where they get their powerful freeze effect off are balanced by all the turns they do nothing at all.

    #174252

    Gloweye
    Member

    Snow Scapers are balanced because of:

    1) Frozen gives 40% Frost Protection, which is a large part of Frostling Damage.
    2) Snow Scapers have low HP for their defense. They might deal damage, but they die fast.

    Orc Spearman, for example, deals much more damage, and with proper use of Warcry/Sprint, you can take out most Infantry units.

    #174291

    Gyor
    Member

    I’m starting to wonder if the Frost Witches are out doing/more important/powerful then the Ice Queens. Do Ice Queens get inflict chilling? How good are Ice Queens compared to Frost Witches?

    Given the Fluff that Ice Queens are more power Frost Witches, do Frost Witches Evovle into Frost Queens.

    It seems the Frostling revolve around control/support, heck even thier Pikemen Royal Guards seem to be multiclass support with thier pledge of protection and suicidal ice explosion when they die, seriously they seem like tougher, better, Pikemen Marytrs.

    #174303

    Gloweye
    Member

    I’m starting to wonder if the Frost Witches are out doing/more important/powerful then the Ice Queens. Do Ice Queens get inflict chilling? How good are Ice Queens compared to Frost Witches?

    They’ve got a different purpose. The White Witch is your default support unit. The Frost Queen is a melee support, of which the main use is the frost weakness and the guard breaking, with heavy frost damage on melee.

    do Frost Witches Evovle into Frost Queens.

    nope.

    It seems the Frostling revolve around control/support, heck even thier Pikemen Royal Guards seem to be multiclass support with thier pledge of protection and suicidal ice explosion when they die, seriously they seem like tougher, better, Pikemen Marytrs.

    Royal Guard is T2, so they’d better be.

    #174339

    Gyor
    Member

    Oh cool, another race with a T2 racial pike like Goblin Butchers.

    #174417

    vota dc
    Member

    Oh cool, another race with a T2 racial pike like Goblin Butchers.

    If not used properly they could be a little 1.5 T: bigger damage and explosive health but just 9 defense, but seems that when they protect someone they get 11 defense so they can bring butcher to the grave with their explosive death or even win (they have frostbite, so if they attack first and it triggers they win).

    #174464

    Fenraellis
    Member

    If not used properly they could be a little 1.5 T: bigger damage and explosive health but just 9 defense, but seems that when they protect someone they get 11 defense so they can bring butcher to the grave with their explosive death or even win (they have frostbite, so if they attack first and it triggers they win).

    Well, Butchers have Life Stealing, which certainly helps. Also Overwhelm, unless I’m misremembering, which means +3 damage against the Royal Guards. So, don’t count them out quite yet.

    #174465

    Astraflame
    Member

    Snow Scapers are balanced because of:

    1) Frozen gives 40% Frost Protection, which is a large part of Frostling Damage.<br>
    2) Snow Scapers have low HP for their defense. They might deal damage, but they die fast.

    Orc Spearman, for example, deals much more damage, and with proper use of Warcry/Sprint, you can take out most Infantry units.

    Orc spear is OP though, compare em to civic guards miners etc… orc spear is ridiculous now with cry.

    #174471

    Astraflame
    Member

    Mammoth is interesting, both powerful and UP at the same time, ehp vs physical is not cost effective , 40 % fire weak is harsh too… then wall crush / dev charge is pretty cool and 15dam is nothing to laugh at. Their regen is going to be a problem, forge priests could be decent support.

    #174621

    Ravenholme
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Gloweye wrote:</div>
    Snow Scapers are balanced because of:

    1) Frozen gives 40% Frost Protection, which is a large part of Frostling Damage.<br><br>
    2) Snow Scapers have low HP for their defense. They might deal damage, but they die fast.

    Orc Spearman, for example, deals much more damage, and with proper use of Warcry/Sprint, you can take out most Infantry units.

    Orc spear is OP though, compare em to civic guards miners etc… orc spear is ridiculous now with cry.

    Prospectors do have strat map utility, though, beyond the fact that they can move underground better than anything else – you’ve got to factor that in when discussing them – Just because they’re not great at TC does not mean they aren’t a useful unit, and you’ve got to take a whole picture view.

    #174775

    Astraflame
    Member

    No offence but underground mobility doesn’t matter if few to none plays with underground, that part of the game is a disappointment so far, thus miners are rly poor units overall (Karagh dwelling, pls/depths)hough i’m not really complaining about the frostling unit just that the orc is far better than other irregular, IMO too damn strong with cry.

    #174829

    Ravenholme
    Member

    No offence but underground mobility doesn’t matter if few to none plays with underground, that part of the game is a disappointment so far, thus miners are rly poor units overall (Karagh dwelling, pls/depths)hough i’m not really complaining about the frostling unit just that the orc is far better than other irregular, IMO too damn strong with cry.

    I was referring to having the ability to tunnel, which for an underground start can actually be a really helpful economic boost.

Viewing 30 posts - 1 through 30 (of 51 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.