What's the consensus on the Dreadnought T4? Does it need a buff?

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Balance Suggestions What's the consensus on the Dreadnought T4? Does it need a buff?

This topic contains 44 replies, has 17 voices, and was last updated by  CrazyElf 7 years, 5 months ago.

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  • #204564

    CrazyElf
    Member

    I’ve increasingly come to the conclusion that it may be the worse T4 in the game right now.

    They were arguably OP back when the game first came out (their mortar tended to take out a lot of T1/T2s in the first round, which was put on cooldown), but now they seem to be lackluster.

    Compared to other units:
    1. Their melee just sucks (a single “ram”) for a T4.

    2. Arguably broadside isn’t too good (all physical damage).

    The other weakness is that unlike abilities like the Eldrich Breath or Dragon Breath, this ability goes to the sides rather than directly in front. That needs more careful positioning to avoid friendly fire.

    Finally, unlike the Theocrat Shine, friendly fire is a much bigger worry because for the Theocrat, Devout units are immune.

    3. Mortar is not too good either – Call Lightning for example can stun, and the Shrine’s bolts, while not AOE benefit from Devout units.

    4. Limited other utility. They do get Tree Crushing, but nothing quite like “Befriend Animal” or Morale buffs or anything along those lines.

    5. They are also the most costly T4 in the game.

    6. Mobility is not too good either (expected), but they cannot fly, float, etc.

    I think that they probably need some buffs. Better melee, perhaps a mixed broadside damage, and better durability.

    #204572

    Mythabril
    Member

    Let’s see:

    – Add Steamroller ability. This is a short range ability that moves the Juggernaut to the target square while doing Ram damage on every unit between. May need one or more turns cooldown.

    – Add Musket Volley ability with one turn cooldown. This will do the same damage as Fire Musket but it can also be used while engaged. These are soldiers on the ramparts firing down onto the battlefield.

    – Add Maintenance on Iron Medal. This represents Engineers stationed inside the Juggernaut fixing things up while out of combat.

    – Add Killing Momentum on Silver Medal. So they can smash a wall or unit and keep rolling just like a Juggernaut would be expected.

    Now it is a versatile and deadly piece of war machinery. The pinnacle of Dreadnought inventiveness.

    #204576

    Aennor
    Member

    – Add Steamroller ability. This is a short range ability that moves the Juggernaut to the target square while doing Ram damage on every unit between. May need one or more turns cooldown.

    Maybe Charge + Devastating Charge will be better?

    #204577

    Zaskow
    Member

    3. Mortar is not too good either – Call Lightning for example can stun, and the Shrine’s bolts, while not AOE benefit from Devout units.

    No one other AoE ability can’t be recharged on next turn and overloaded for additional 10 damage.

    6. Mobility is not too good either (expected), but they cannot fly, float, etc.

    They get Free movement on veteran.

    4. Limited other utility. They do get Tree Crushing, but nothing quite like “Befriend Animal” or Morale buffs or anything along those lines.

    Most class T4s don’t bring different bonuses too.

    Maybe Charge + Devastating Charge will be better?

    I’d like to reserve this as racial ability for orc Dreads. 😀

    #204579

    CrazyElf
    Member

    No one other AoE ability can’t be recharged on next turn and overloaded for additional 10 damage.

    You need to bring an engineer for that (which are even with the buffs, easily killed), or you need to overload, which carries the risk that it could render your unit disabled.

    They get Free movement on veteran.

    True, but it’s not on par with floating or flying.

    Most class T4s don’t bring different bonuses too.

    With the exception of the Manticore (which has powerful bleeding wounds), they all seem to get something:

    – Mind control (Horror)
    – Fearsome (although to be fair the Horror doesn’t have ranged attacks outside of the lightning breath)
    – Befriend animal (Horned God)
    – Buffs near devout units (Shrine)

    WE could make a longer list, but you get the idea.

    #204585

    Zaskow
    Member

    Befriend animal (Horned God)

    Pretty useless ability in late game.

    – Buffs near devout units (Shrine)

    Shrine doesn’t buff near devout units. This is near devout units buff Shrine.

    #204588

    CrazyElf
    Member

    Pretty useless ability in late game.

    I could list another – charge, something that a few people are proposing that the Dreadnought T4 get.

    In terms of overall utility and effectiveness though, the Druid T4 is quite a bit better than the Dreadnought T4 – arguably, the top T4 (apart from Golden Dragon) is the Horned God.

    It’s difficult to compare apples to apples, but it has better melee, a better ranged ability (lightning) and better utility overall.

    Shrine doesn’t buff near devout units. This is near devout units buff Shrine.

    Either way, it’s an example of some utility that the Juggernaut does not have.

    #204590

    Wallthing
    Member

    I’m not saying the Juggernaut does or doesn’t need a bit of a spit shine but I think it is important to keep in mind that the Eldritch Horror, Dread Reaper, and Horned God are all summoned T4s, not produced.

    I think I remember someone’s proposition for a ‘deploy engineer’ ability getting some interest from Tombles, for what that’s worth.

    #204595

    Mythabril
    Member

    – Add Steamroller ability. This is a short range ability that moves the Juggernaut to the target square while doing Ram damage on every unit between. May need one or more turns cooldown.

    Maybe Charge + Devastating Charge will be better?

    Point was to keep it rolling. One could give it Killing Momentum as a base and turn the Steamroller ability into an upgrade of that on Silver Medal, giving another action point and six Movement every time a kill is made, without the once per turn limit. This would make the ability more situational but if tactically well played a lot more devastating, especially against mortar fire weakened small units.

    #204608

    CSav10
    Member

    One thing to keep in mind is they do have the longest shot range available on any tier 4 with fire mortar, 110hp is the highest base health, 18,18 damage mortar does just as much at long range and I personally feel its better than smiting bolts at 10,10 which require you to keep devout units to do more damage. The horned god will be more useful than everything else with entangling strike a creature summon etc not only dreadnaught. The only downfall to mortar is that it starts on a CD, though people may well complain it would be OP if it didn’t. I still find mass producing juggernauts blows through just about everything late game.

    #204624

    CrazyElf
    Member

    One thing to keep in mind is they do have the longest shot range available on any tier 4 with fire mortar, 110hp is the highest base health, 18,18 damage mortar does just as much at long range and I personally feel its better than smiting bolts at 10,10 which require you to keep devout units to do more damage. The horned god will be more useful than everything else with entangling strike a creature summon etc not only dreadnaught. The only downfall to mortar is that it starts on a CD, though people may well complain it would be OP if it didn’t. I still find mass producing juggernauts blows through just about everything late game.

    They do have the highest hp, but not the highest base armor (although that can be upgraded and the Great Mobilization is also an upgrade here – but I would argue it’s less good than the Warlord or other super abilities). Base resistance is not that high either (again mitigated somewhat with the Great Mobilization).

    #204641

    They have immolate, high defense, possible enchanted armory and the machine buff site, free movement, and can be reloaded every turn with an engineer and or dread hero. They can also be ressurected with their abilities all reset. Their leader can remove the shock weakness, add fire protection and resistance, and repair them.

    They are the best massed t-4 in the game of the class units. A horned god is more expensive in research cost and cp, and has to get decently lucky to beat them 1 on one (a stun or entangle strike).

    What about manticores you say? Well, manticores massed move more, and the right ones are great vs. specific targets, but cardinal culling is much worse to suffer for melee troops than ranged ones (especially one shot ones).

    Shrines are the best combined arms t4 (in that all the devout units make them great), The Horned God is the best 1 on 1 and as a crowd control unit, the stalker is the sneakiest effective t-4, and the dread reaper acts as a battle cruiser anti capitol ship type.

    Manticores are the most flexible, in that each performs a different task on different units.

    #204647

    Ericridge
    Member

    I like that musket volley idea for it is even present in its lore xD

    I dunno about newly improved juggernaut cuz I haven’t built it yet.

    #204656

    Bouh
    Member

    Dreadnought, and juggernought, already counter many classes. Juggernought definitely doesn’t need any buff. But let’s see a class by class comparison :

    – mass producible, so sorcerer, archdruid and necromancer are outclassed
    – T4 so rogue is outclassed
    That leaves only theocrat and warlord.
    – long ranged, so definitely not worse than a manticore rider

    That leaves the shrine of smiting as the only contender to the juggernought. Then you need to account for the all the buffs the dreadnought can give to his juggernought :
    – reassemble
    – empire upgrades
    – engineer/hero

    The unit itself then : not only is it the ultimate siege machine (no other long range machine in game is better), it also have insane resilience (only the mightest T4 are as tough as this machine). And ram is only here for when you can fire your mortar, yet it comes handy, because the damage is definitely noticeable.

    I fear shrines a lot less than juggernought, because shrines need a lot more “support” units around them to be really mighty. Juggernought is always a big threat. And destroy walls, and ignore obstacles. And a lot harder to kill.

    #204663

    Ericridge
    Member

    That’s funny Bouh because I actually fear shrines of smiting doom because AI theocrat tend to mass them and then hurl them into my frontlines and if they survive the barrage of fire, they tend to use the divine aoe that I really really really hate being hit by because it also does shock damage. And a few of them firing it off = death.

    That has led me into trying to kill it at extreme range or attacking them with as few units as possible to try make AI not think about using it’s aoe doom.

    #204677

    Hatmage
    Member

    I’d give it killing momentum – it makes every bit of thematic sense without being terribly useful.

    #204693

    CrazyElf
    Member

    That’s funny Bouh because I actually fear shrines of smiting doom because AI theocrat tend to mass them and then hurl them into my frontlines and if they survive the barrage of fire, they tend to use the divine aoe that I really really really hate being hit by because it also does shock damage. And a few of them firing it off = death.

    That has led me into trying to kill it at extreme range or attacking them with as few units as possible to try make AI not think about using it’s aoe doom.

    This. The other issue is that the bolts become progressively more dangerous with more units. Ever see them in a large shrine army? The bolts are very powerful.

    They are the best massed t-4 in the game of the class units. A horned god is more expensive in research cost and cp, and has to get decently lucky to beat them 1 on one (a stun or entangle strike).

    Imo, the Horror or the Horned God are the best for massing. The only drawback of course is that they are summoned, although on small to medium sized maps that is an advantage.

    The issue I see is that the synergy is somewhat weaker with Dreadnought. As someone noted, maybe muskets on top would be an option.

    #204696

    Fenraellis
    Member

    Huh… I’m surprised that people thing Juggernauts are not ‘strong’. On a side note, the ‘high cost’ is somewhat relative, due to benefiting from from empire upgrades that reduce cost of Machines and Armored units(which stack, if I recall correctly).

    #204697

    Zaskow
    Member

    I’d give it killing momentum – it makes every bit of thematic sense without being terribly useful.

    You can kill one more target with free engineer.

    #204703

    CrazyElf
    Member

    Huh… I’m surprised that people thing Juggernauts are not ‘strong’. On a side note, the ‘high cost’ is somewhat relative, due to benefiting from from empire upgrades that reduce cost of Machines and Armored units(which stack, if I recall correctly).

    I guess the way to put it is that in absolute terms, they may be “strong”, but relative to what the other classes are getting at T4, they seem lackluster. I guess the way to put it would be T4 for T4, they are not up to par?

    One more weak point to mention is that machines are uniquely vulnerable to being stunned.

    #204719

    Hatmage
    Member

    You can kill one more target with free engineer.

    Good point. I forget sometimes that momentum works with ranged attacks. It shouldn’t, really, but there are a lot of things it shouldn’t do, like be more common on infantry than cavalry.

    #204720

    Ericridge
    Member

    I just logged into to check quick.

    Juggernaut now costs 320 production if you have both armored + assembly line empire upgrades.

    That puts it into the realm to be one turned more easily than the old 340 production one. Is definitely achievable cuz I’ve pulled 320+ production before on average setting once but never 340+.

    It requires a real good prime location that could easily be set up to fit four smaller cities instead though.

    #204802

    CSav10
    Member

    Theres a reason people consider dreadnought one of the best late game classes ;). Its definatly not because juggernouts are weak. Also as already stated before mass produced because of the range and massive individual damage they are still the most effective T4 in large numbers. The horned god has the most crowd control utility, but juggernauts are beefy units that deal massive damage at a large range potentially avoiding damage the following round, which makes them incredibly useful in sieges I might add.

    #204820

    Epaminondas
    Member

    Agree with these two gentlemen.

    One thing to keep in mind is they do have the longest shot range available on any tier 4 with fire mortar, 110hp is the highest base health, 18,18 damage mortar does just as much at long range and I personally feel its better than smiting bolts at 10,10 which require you to keep devout units to do more damage. The horned god will be more useful than everything else with entangling strike a creature summon etc not only dreadnaught. The only downfall to mortar is that it starts on a CD, though people may well complain it would be OP if it didn’t. I still find mass producing juggernauts blows through just about everything late game.

    Dreadnought, and juggernought, already counter many classes. Juggernought definitely doesn’t need any buff. But let’s see a class by class comparison :

    – mass producible, so sorcerer, archdruid and necromancer are outclassed
    – T4 so rogue is outclassed
    That leaves only theocrat and warlord.
    – long ranged, so definitely not worse than a manticore rider

    That leaves the shrine of smiting as the only contender to the juggernought. Then you need to account for the all the buffs the dreadnought can give to his juggernought :
    – reassemble
    – empire upgrades
    – engineer/hero

    The unit itself then : not only is it the ultimate siege machine (no other long range machine in game is better), it also have insane resilience (only the mightest T4 are as tough as this machine). And ram is only here for when you can fire your mortar, yet it comes handy, because the damage is definitely noticeable.

    I fear shrines a lot less than juggernought, because shrines need a lot more “support” units around them to be really mighty. Juggernought is always a big threat. And destroy walls, and ignore obstacles. And a lot harder to kill.

    #204944

    CrazyElf
    Member

    I just logged into to check quick.

    Juggernaut now costs 320 production if you have both armored + assembly line empire upgrades.

    That puts it into the realm to be one turned more easily than the old 340 production one. Is definitely achievable cuz I’ve pulled 320+ production before on average setting once but never 340+.

    It requires a real good prime location that could easily be set up to fit four smaller cities instead though.

    The problem I have there is that this makes it dependent on having maps with very “rich” resources or winning the RNG when it comes to finding a good location for your cities.

    Theres a reason people consider dreadnought one of the best late game classes ;). Its definatly not because juggernouts are weak. Also as already stated before mass produced because of the range and massive individual damage they are still the most effective T4 in large numbers. The horned god has the most crowd control utility, but juggernauts are beefy units that deal massive damage at a large range potentially avoiding damage the following round, which makes them incredibly useful in sieges I might add.

    I’ve already indicated the weak points – to being stunned (vs sorcerer and elves), no crowd control, and the broadside is not too good.

    #204981

    Ericridge
    Member

    That’s okay CrazyElf, if I happen to spot prime estate. I will attempt to one turn the juggernaut. Otherwise I carry on like normal xD

    #205120

    CrazyElf
    Member

    That’s okay CrazyElf, if I happen to spot prime estate. I will attempt to one turn the juggernaut. Otherwise I carry on like normal xD

    Joking aside, you do realize how RNG dependent this is?

    1. You need to spot the prime real estate before anyone else does.

    2. You need to hold a city long enough and level it up.

    3. City must be defended or in an area that you can hold.

    That city will also be a priority target because if it has a lot of resources, enemies everywhere will want it.

    #205121

    madmac
    Member

    Juggernaut already got two buffs recently (Armored, and Inflict Immolation) and it certainly doesn’t need more. As everyone else has said Mass Juggernauts is basically the scariest thing in the game any class can realistically throw at you.

    #205129

    Ericridge
    Member

    That’s okay CrazyElf, if I happen to spot prime estate. I will attempt to one turn the juggernaut. Otherwise I carry on like normal xD

    Joking aside, you do realize how RNG dependent this is?

    1. You need to spot the prime real estate before anyone else does.

    2. You need to hold a city long enough and level it up.

    3. City must be defended or in an area that you can hold.

    That city will also be a priority target because if it has a lot of resources, enemies everywhere will want it.

    That’s fine with me. If I could achieve it once before, I can do it again! And i’m not shy about razing 4+ cities in subpar locations to create one super city.

    And….Dreadnoughts excel in siege battles! While the AIs might scream at me to vacates the premises, they cannot kick me out without some serious firepower or a megabattle.

    The journey is going to be fun.

    #205165

    CSav10
    Member

    I’ve already indicated the weak points – to being stunned (vs sorcerer and elves), no crowd control, and the broadside is not too good.

    Your weak points

    No 1) Being stunned- Its a tier 4 so the stun chance alone is low. That is provided things can get in range to stun it before they are blown to shreds.

    No 2) Crowd Control- of Class tier 4 units how many get crowd control? Entangling strike on horned god maybe? I don’t really think this a relevant at any rate because they have huge other advantages, like being able to hit multiple units with more than one attack.

    No 3) Fire Broadside- I think saying this is not too good is really a matter of opinion. It is a great source of AOE when your getting mobbed.

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