Why alignment T4s (Angels) does not have Mind Control Immunity?

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Why alignment T4s (Angels) does not have Mind Control Immunity?

This topic contains 31 replies, has 16 voices, and was last updated by  zeelilus 6 years, 11 months ago.

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  • #209653

    rilian-la-te
    Member

    Do you fill, that it is needed? I am able to convert it in turn 18-20 with my Theocrat. I think, this is not good.

    I find Grey Guard Adept is very useful for caster classes. Essence harvest allows leader to cast both combat spells and global spells at same time. In 1.55 it was most powerful adept ever (Essence harvest, cardinal culling, shield of dipassion). Will see 1.6 (with cardinal culling gone).

    #209667

    Gloweye
    Member

    I am able to convert it in turn 18-20 with my Theocrat. I think, this is not good.

    Can even be done faster. On top of that, Fallen Angel got 40% Spirit Weakness, which gives a (11-2=9 -> 45%, 45*1.4 = )63% chance out of guard mode.

    And even worse, the Arch Angel is immune to Ghoul Curse (for not apparent reason), while still being able to be converted/whatevered if you take the effort to reduce the spirit protection below 100%.

    #209677

    rilian-la-te
    Member

    Can even be done faster.
    Unfortunately, I cannot level up theocrat to level 6 before turn 18 usually:(

    #209691

    Gloweye
    Member

    Can even be done faster.
    Unfortunately, I cannot level up theocrat to level 6 before turn 18 usually:(

    Practice. Not really easy, but Theocrat is the best at leveling specific units. Martyrs + Healing tend to keep them alive if that’s your focus.

    #209696

    Nodor
    Member

    Can even be done faster.
    Unfortunately, I cannot level up theocrat to level 6 before turn 18 usually:(

    Practice. Not really easy, but Theocrat is the best at leveling specific units. Martyrs + Healing tend to keep them alive if that’s your focus.

    @ Gloweye
    I assume female leader + frostling guards would also work. – Have you tested this?

    #209698

    Athei
    Member

    Yeah, that’s what is troubling me as well. I think they will be much more useful with the immunity.

    #209710

    emky
    Member

    Just last night, I ‘Convert’ed (In auto combat) the neutral Cthonic Angel when I was pure good, and I was happy to have a great unit… Until I realized it hated me and was useless from morale due to being dedicated to neutral.

    #209713

    Gloweye
    Member

    Can even be done faster.
    Unfortunately, I cannot level up theocrat to level 6 before turn 18 usually:(

    Practice. Not really easy, but Theocrat is the best at leveling specific units. Martyrs + Healing tend to keep them alive if that’s your focus.

    @ Gloweye
    I assume female leader + frostling guards would also work. – Have you tested this?

    Works with all (frostling ofc) heroes/leaders, to keep things even balancewise. It also works on Deathbringers, Succubi, Bards, Warlord Scouts, and maybe I forgot some.

    Explanation is that they’re Royal Guards, and the male heroes/leaders who are with the leading woman may be less important than their wives, they’re still important enough to warrant special protection.

    #209718

    quo
    Member

    It was discussed at length, and decided it is better to leave at least some good units who can be Converted. You can Convert heroes, after all. There are ways to make a unit immune to Convert (Warlord heroes, or the Arch Druid or Theocrat ultimate spell, for example).

    The Fallen Angel in particular is vulnerable to Convert without Support, for reasons that are somewhat obvious.

    Are you finding these summons somewhere on the map early? The only place I’ve seen them is when other players summoned them.

    #209722

    quo
    Member

    I assume female leader + frostling guards would also work. – Have you tested this?

    It works on leaders of any gender but you probably want a Martyr instead since those can evolve to Exalted at Gold.

    #209738

    I say why not? Keeps the alignment specials from being overpowered as their top units have counters, and let’s others get lucky with a pick up if they are manualing the ai.

    #209801

    Gloweye
    Member

    Are you finding these summons somewhere on the map early? The only place I’ve seen them is when other players summoned them.

    A Forbidden Sanctum might contain them, though I dunno if that has guard strength requirements. I’ve played around with that setting to much in short time to be sure.

    I say why not? Keeps the alignment specials from being overpowered as their top units have counters, and let’s others get lucky with a pick up if they are manualing the ai.

    Still no reason why Ghouling is disallowed…

    #209830

    quo wrote:

    Are you finding these summons somewhere on the map early? The only place I’ve seen them is when other players summoned them.

    A Forbidden Sanctum might contain them, though I dunno if that has guard strength requirements. I’ve played around with that setting to much in short time to be sure.

    I found one in a forbidden Sanctum with guards on normal.

    Still no reason why Ghouling is disallowed…

    Well angels are a kind of otherworldly beings similar to elementals. So maybe thats why.

    Will see 1.6 (with cardinal culling gone).

    Wow. why will that be? You mean completely gone? Not even just reshuffeld?

    #209841

    Culling’s not gone, just bumped to Mastery.

    #209842

    rilian-la-te
    Member

    Wow. why will that be? You mean completely gone? Not even just reshuffeld?

    It is on Master now, but I prefer to play with elemental or wild mastery.

    #209846

    NuMetal
    Member

    Well angels are a kind of otherworldly beings similar to elementals. So maybe thats why.

    They can die and leave behind a dead body unlike elementals so I think that isn’t an explanation. Imo everything that leaves a body to be reanimated should also be ghoulable.
    It was that way at the beginning and was only changed because some people had the arbitrary feeling that they shouldn’t be affected even though it only took from the game and improved nothing.
    It was a sad day.

    #209856

    CSav10
    Member

    I agree however that the units should have MC immunity. There are multiple channels which they can be controlled, including Arcane binding, which is a guaranteed one.

    #209857

    Gloweye
    Member

    I agree however that the units should have MC immunity. There are multiple channels which they can be controlled, including Arcane binding, which is a guaranteed one.

    Arcane Binding is a very special case; for example, it doesn’t allow you to keep the unit if combat ends with it under your control. Therefore it’s much less prone to balance issues after the combat where it’s used.

    #209950

    quo
    Member

    I agree however that the units should have MC immunity. There are multiple channels which they can be controlled, including Arcane binding, which is a guaranteed one.

    The problem is the flipside: making all the good units in the game have MCI means Convert/Seduce are not useful, and hurts Theocrats/Rogues.

    The only I’m kind of disappointed by is Seduce and Dominate being in the Item Forge. I don’t think they should be, for the same reason Invoke Death isn’t in there. Charm is already in the forge and is sufficient for what a forged item should offer.

    Seduce on randomly rolled treasure is fine.

    #209972

    Culling’s not gone, just bumped to Mastery.

    phew, thanks! for a moment I feared the worst. Would not have liked to remove something well-designed like that being completely removed.

    As for the mind control issue: maybe a solution might be that mind controll immunity only protects again certain types of control. So lets say from everything but domination or something like that.

    Or it reduces the duration (time limited stuff goes from 3 to 1 turn and the rest goes from endless to 3 turns?) But I do not really like that option myself.

    #209976

    The AI chancels mind controlled summons now. Players can do that too.

    Consider the implications.

    It was that way at the beginning and was only changed because some people had the arbitrary feeling that they shouldn’t be affected even though it only took from the game and improved nothing.
    It was a sad day.

    After some playing I’d even say it made things worse. Keeper of the Peace Necros now have this one summon all their healing and support stuff doesn’t work on. It makes them a quite annoying special case to use on your side.

    As for the mind control issue: maybe a solution might be that mind controll immunity only protects again certain types of control. So lets say from everything but domination or something like that.

    When Shadow Magic introduced Willpower (MCI) it also introduced the skill “Drain Willpower” on a few units. AoW3 has no equivalent so far.

    #209986

    Gloweye
    Member

    When Shadow Magic introduced Willpower (MCI) it also introduced the skill “Drain Willpower” on a few units

    Only the Incarnate, though it also appeared in the Item Forge (which was OP…you could complete any campaign if you could do the first level, because you could just forge OP item sets for your heroes.)

    #209997

    Dr_K
    Member

    Keeper of the Peace Necros now have this one summon all their healing and support stuff doesn’t work on. It makes them a quite annoying special case to use on your side.

    Shouldn’t this be taken care of with the Harbingers of Death empire upgrade? Which would be researched by the time you get Arch Angels summons.

    You do however sort of have wasted abilities on the Arch Angel in that case. Healing is useless by that point unless you’ve got Dragons or Elementals in your armies, and I don’t know if Inspiring Aura affects the Undead. I assume not though.

    #210127

    Only the Incarnate, though it also appeared in the Item Forge (which was OP…you could complete any campaign if you could do the first level, because you could just forge OP item sets for your heroes.)

    Also on the necromancer, the vampire at gold medal and the sphinx at silver.
    And while the forge might have been highly problematic in campaigns, it was less so in random maps or multiplayer.

    But the thing is 4 units with Drain Will, some which were not too uncommon as guards and the possibility to craft it when you were unlucky meant that Willpower made a creature harder to control, but not impossible.
    In AoW3 MCI makes it simply impossible with no way around.
    And that is one reason ghouling is so popular. It give you options and makes it more interesting instead of removing options and making the game less interesting.

    Shouldn’t this be taken care of with the Harbingers of Death empire upgrade? Which would be researched by the time you get Arch Angels summons.

    You do however sort of have wasted abilities on the Arch Angel in that case. Healing is useless by that point unless you’ve got Dragons or Elementals in your armies, and I don’t know if Inspiring Aura affects the Undead. I assume not though.

    AFAIK you can’t ghoul the Arch Angel. Full stop. I haven’t seen it since the patch that changed it. All the healing the necromancer gets heals undead, which the Archangel isn’t and can’t be. Same for most Necro empire upgrades.
    The unghouled Arch Angel is a unit that simply does not interact with anything Necromancer, the ghouled Arch Angel did.
    There is no other specialization option that works so little with a class since Condemn Killing was changed. And it is the big T4 summon of that specialization.

    #210142

    madmac
    Member

    I mean, Archangels carry their own heal spell, so I’m not sure how much of a burden that really is.

    #210311

    Yeah, you actually get more healing, since living supports get heal undead as well. A spirit immune, non undead unit can actually be pretty useful for the undead.

    #210322

    The issue is not one of power, but one of having your big shiny specialization special unit not integrate with your entire army and class and no option to change that.
    It can be useful and it can be annoying, but all the Necros “undead” stuff doesn’t work with it.
    The presence of the Arch Angel is always a “special case” for the Necro, that needs special considerations. And not necessarily in a good way. There is no way to change that, and it is the final “reward” of one of the alignment specializations.
    And that in a class whose base structure is doing the opposite of that.

    #210392

    zeelilus
    Member

    The issue is not one of power, but one of having your big shiny specialization special unit not integrate with your entire army and class and no option to change that.
    It can be useful and it can be annoying, but all the Necros “undead” stuff doesn’t work with it.
    The presence of the Arch Angel is always a “special case” for the Necro, that needs special considerations. And not necessarily in a good way. There is no way to change that, and it is the final “reward” of one of the alignment specializations.
    And that in a class whose base structure is doing the opposite of that.

    There’s summons with all the old elemental masteries, and I don’t see a synergy with every single class and every elemental.

    #210431

    There’s summons with all the old elemental masteries, and I don’t see a synergy with every single class and every elemental.

    Those masteries require no alignment dedication and have all one spell that is at least on the assumed same level as the T3 elementals.

    Also the elementals align with no class better or worse by anything other than being summons.
    The Angels on the other hand all have a basic troop type that is able to grab the nice bonuses the class provides. Stunning, phasing Arch Angels, Chtonic Guardians with Martial Arts or backstabbing Fallen Angels.

    The two classes that are exceptions are the Dreadnought and the Necromancer.
    The Dreadnought because its bonuses apply to machines, cavalry and archers and none of the angels is that.
    The necromancer because its bonuses and spells almost all apply to undead. That is not an issue for the two of the angels can be ghouled. And then there is the Arch Angel. It is a big glaring exception among the angels for no discernible reasons.
    It is the big alignment reward specialization summon that fits into your class lineup, except if you are a good necromancer.

    The issue is not the lack of general synergy, it is the lack of synergy for this particular combination that has no reason to be and does not exist for any other combination.

    #210474

    Fenraellis
    Member

    It can be useful and it can be annoying, but all the Necros “undead” stuff doesn’t work with it.
    The presence of the Arch Angel is always a “special case” for the Necro, that needs special considerations. And not necessarily in a good way. There is no way to change that, and it is the final “reward” of one of the alignment specializations.

    Isn’t it the case that you can still Ghoul them by drinking from a Well of Souls? Or was that interaction removed…

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