Why are machines Spirit/Blight-immune?: A proposal

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Why are machines Spirit/Blight-immune?: A proposal

This topic contains 167 replies, has 36 voices, and was last updated by  kwibus 6 years, 7 months ago.

Viewing 18 posts - 151 through 168 (of 168 total)
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  • #209351

    Bouh
    Member

    But it’s not completely clear to me how “magical” Dreadnought machines in fact are.

    As Zaskow said, it’s mana fueled batteries, for powersource. It’s comparable to a nuclear power source as the unstable mana core spell shows.

    I call it a legend due to the lack of concise sources and proof for it. Given the prominence of Rome, Alexandria and Archimedes, there should be more than there is, and given what has lasted, having omissions that take that specific shape would be a weird coincidence.
    I consider it quite probable that, similar to steam engines, maybe even models existed as proof of concept, but due to technological and economical limitations the idea never went beyond that stage and wasn’t weaponized.
    And the legend can be rather easily explained with the cultural and other aspects of the time. That is my opinion, and I have no more than other to base it on, as there is a distinct lack of evidence either way.

    There are many reasons for a technology to not be used and to lose it over time. In WWII germans had the technology to build jet plane and guided missiles, but the command didn’t believed in it and instead they build the V2 to bombard britain. As far as I know technology were getting lost in western roman empire because of the decadence of the empire, but even before that I read that romans never got interested in the mathematics and geometry the greek mastered, so the complex siege engines progressively get lost because they were unable to repair them. Another example of lost knowledge is the history of apollo program : I read that a lot of knowledge on the moon missions have been lost, because companies involved sunk and lost their documents, and because engineers who worked on the project retired without giving their knowledge, because there was no one to teach this knowledge to for a long time.

    So of course there might have been technological limitations, but knowledge loss is a thing.

    Machines have clear strengths and weaknesses, and the entire balance of them revolves around them.
    Furthermore AoW3 is a game that does handle out a significant amount of immunities to units. And as a consequence of that, there is a lot of the game balance built around the fact that except for physical damage, there will be units immune to that. And as another consequence there are a significant amount of ways to deal with units that have immunities. Immunities are a difficulty nothing more.

    So IMO reducing an immunity to a a high protection does change a significant amount of game balance. For example, there is the susceptibility to debuffs.
    And removing an immunity from a class of units, be they undead (as in the other thread) or machines in the system as it stands is a heavy paradigm shift. That would have a big impact and as a balance point require a a significant added bonus to compensate. Basically it would set back all machine unit balance to sometime during the beta stage.
    I don’t think that is a good idea, especially as the future seems to hold less patches.

    This is spot on.

    #209361

    terrahero
    Member

    You speculate they dont i speculate they do. You don’t see troops carrying any gear around yet they still eat, sleep and heal.

    Field repair to full conditions is almost impossible for any complicated machine.

    Early on in this thread the argument was made that these machine’s werent infact so advanced they could protect their operators. And Engineers, Dreadnoughts, or a simple crate of tools and even a bunch of lowly educated laborers with a Builder can get the job done. So it’s clearly not anywhere as close to impossible as you seem to believe.

    #209368

    Zaskow
    Member

    And Engineers, Dreadnoughts, or a simple crate of tools and even a bunch of lowly educated laborers with a Builder can get the job done.

    Builder can repair only after Master’s Hall. I think they stop to be “lowly educated laborers”.

    #209369

    terrahero
    Member

    And Engineers, Dreadnoughts, or a simple crate of tools and even a bunch of lowly educated laborers with a Builder can get the job done.

    Builder can repair only after Master’s Hall. I think they stop to be “lowly educated laborers”.

    Description doesn’t change. They might have better supervisors or rather become equiped with the basic tools to perform machine repairs, but they remain unskilled laberors.
    And that still doesn’t excuse Engineers, Dreadnoughts or any other hero with a toolkit has no trouble whatsoever repairing machines. So still very much possible.

    #209386

    SiaFu
    Member

    I think the current machine immunities are just fine as they help prevent special effects that would be illogical for machine targets. It’s not like you can’t counter machines with a healthy mix of racial units, whatever your base class.

    The main reason I see for machines being spirit immune is to make them impervious to various charm/control spells and Ghoul Curse. I haven’t tried converting/ghouling Degenerated machines, but that shouldn’t work either.
    Brain Rot, Curse, Dazzle, Despair etc. also make little sense on machines.

    Blight immunity is also expected since most blight attacks rely on contact. Severely poisoned, Noxious vulnerability, Enfeebling fever and Exhausting fatigue don’t make much sense when targeting machines (even if the gunner is woozy, the tank still has 5 cm of armor plating, for example).
    You still have Weaken if you really have to attack machines with Blight damage.

    Inflict bleeding and Crippling wounds are defence based but also seem ill-fitted for machines (even if they work).

    There are so few machine units in the game, and with the whole Dreadnought class being balanced around their special properties – those immunities help offset their slowness and lack of health regeneration. The only Theocrat Machine got its regen with the new Holy Relic ability as they can’t produce Engineers.

    And i don’t think machine counters such as Sabotage are rare or hard to find. Dreadnoughts and Rogues get it as a Hero upgrade and you can Convert Dread Monkeys and Scoundrels from various treasure sites if you’re not a Rogue.

    Now there’s Demolisher, that you can forge. With Demolisher (x2), the main Necro tank – the bone collector – is also a machine-killer. Warlord has Berserkers with it, Evil players and Goblins have Trolls and everyone can use Dwarven Axemen and Prospectors.

    In the end, machines being treated as single wholly mechanical entities with no provision for biological crews are a level of abstraction that’s acceptable in game. They’re a special sort of units, just like the elementals, incorporeals or undead.
    I don’t see the sense in complicating things with machine crews etc. – would you also ask for separate saves for rider/mount? They game also treats those as a homogeneous unit.

    #209387

    As far as I know technology were getting lost in western roman empire because of the decadence of the empire, but even before that I read that romans never got interested in the mathematics and geometry the greek mastered, so the complex siege engines progressively get lost because they were unable to repair them.

    eh? No that isn’t it. What happened was that the late greek and early roman set of siege engines had been simplified over time. You used to have (although we don’t really have many records of them) the one armed type weapon (the onager or scorpion), the “classic ballista” Euthytone box type weapon, and the Palintone type (which had two separate spring systems, inward swinging arms separated by a wide space). There were also tension bow machines used.

    The names are bow based: the Euthytone looked like a self bow (longbow) when drawn, and the Palintone like a recurved bow (mongol or other horse archer type).

    The Euthytone could only fire arrows or very small stones, and the palintone could fire both, and over time, people just moved to the Palintone and Onager (since they could do everything) rather than a specific bolt only one. You also had better tension machines (sort of all metal and metal string ones) as large or normal crossbows.

    As the Western Roman empire contracted, the arsenals for the manufacture of the complex animal and plant fibers used for torsion springs were either lost to central control or became too expensive to maintain.

    In the East, in contrast, the factories were still there, so late classical machines were probably used for a longer time. Traction (and later counterweight) trebuchets and tension crossbows ended up replacing (most) torsion weapons in both places because they were simpler to maintain and use.

    All you need for a traction trebuchet is a tree limb, a trestle, and a bunch of people to pull in unison.

    There were Palintone Springalds, but these were used in ships and towers where you had limited space (since a torsion weapon is smaller than a non metal tension weapon), and all that metal would be bad in an ocean environment.

    In fact, most of the classical scientific expertise became focused on military matters in Byzantium after the old universities were shut down in favor of theology programs.

    Anyway, I agree with Iron Soul. This would take a month of work to fix something that isn’t broken in the first place.

    #209390

    Zaskow
    Member

    I think the current machine immunities are just fine as they help prevent special effects that would be illogical for machine targets.

    Look at the Elementals. They’re vulnerable to some elemental damage, but can’t be effected by stun, daze etc. So, devs could make machines immune to such effects separately.

    The main reason I see for machines being spirit immune is to make them impervious to various charm/control spells and Ghoul Curse. I haven’t tried converting/ghouling Degenerated machines, but that shouldn’t work either.
    Brain Rot, Curse, Dazzle, Despair etc. also make little sense on machines.

    Immunity to certain effects can be set separately for any units.

    Brain Rot, Curse, Dazzle, Despair etc. also make little sense on machines.

    It makes sense on crew.

    you can Convert Dread Monkeys and Scoundrels from various treasure sites if you’re not a Rogue.

    Is it reliable? I don’t think so. Also monkeys and scoundrels are very fragile.

    Severely poisoned, Noxious vulnerability, Enfeebling fever and Exhausting fatigue don’t make much sense when targeting machines (even if the gunner is woozy, the tank still has 5 cm of armor plating, for example).

    Fine, make machines immune to them.

    There are so few machine units in the game, and with the whole Dreadnought class being balanced around their special properties – those immunities help offset their slowness

    Slowness? Really? Machines move as other walking units which are very common.

    lack of health regeneration.

    They got enough repair as compensation. Full health isn’t problem for machines.

    With Demolisher (x2), the main Necro tank – the bone collector – is also a machine-killer.

    Only one enough sufficient tool of Necro against machines.

    everyone can use Dwarven Axemen and Prospectors.

    Weak cannon-fodder for barrages of cannons and tanks.

    #209393

    CrazyElf
    Member

    In a way it always is. But Tombles wrote in the patch thread about soon making new announcements and no matter what those will be, the result will probably be less resources to patch development.

    Thanks for the update.

    To be honest, I’d be ok with that if they released extensive modding tools.

    #209398

    terrahero
    Member

    Since the argument for reducing spirit/blight protection is based on assuming crew is part of the unit and that part that is vulnerable to these elements, shock weakness would have to be lowered.
    No races are weak to shock. Fire would depend on the race.

    #209400

    Zaskow
    Member

    Since the argument for reducing spirit/blight protection is based on assuming crew is part of the unit and that part that is vulnerable to these elements, shock weakness would have to be lowered.
    No races are weak to shock. Fire would depend on the race.

    I am not against removing machines’ shock weakness completely. Anyway, it looked weird, because machines in AoW3 don’t use electronic parts.

    #209513

    NuMetal
    Member

    Machines have clear strengths and weaknesses, and the entire balance of them revolves around them.
    Furthermore AoW3 is a game that does handle out a significant amount of immunities to units. And as a consequence of that, there is a lot of the game balance built around the fact that except for physical damage, there will be units immune to that. And as another consequence there are a significant amount of ways to deal with units that have immunities. Immunities are a difficulty nothing more.

    So IMO reducing an immunity to a a high protection does change a significant amount of game balance. For example, there is the susceptibility to debuffs.
    And removing an immunity from a class of units, be they undead (as in the other thread) or machines in the system as it stands is a heavy paradigm shift. That would have a big impact and as a balance point require a a significant added bonus to compensate. Basically it would set back all machine unit balance to sometime during the beta stage.
    I don’t think that is a good idea, especially as the future seems to hold less patches.
    As a mod I think ti would require a lot of destructive playtesting and be a right headache to get right.

    Perfectly said! +1

    #230715

    Epaminondas
    Member

    After playing with my own mods that incorporates the changes suggested in the original post, I can confirm I was right all along! 😉

    #230740

    Nerdfish
    Member

    Machines are immune to blight and spirit damage, which defines what they are and makes them interesting. This proposal is like saying undead should not be immune to blight, only resist it. LOL.

    As for blight and spirit killing the crew. They wouldn’t. Because these attack wouldn’t reach the crew in the first place unless the vehicle is destroyed. Spraying acid on a tank is going to do squat against people behind 50mm of plating. Spirit attacks need to reach their target, and again it’s blocked by vehicular armor. A vehicle operator does not need to directly touch the armor because that’d just be bad design.

    As for balance: electrical damage are strong against machines, so use that.

    #230742

    Epaminondas
    Member

    As for blight and spirit killing the crew. They wouldn’t. Because these attack wouldn’t reach the crew in the first place unless the vehicle is destroyed. Spraying acid on a tank is going to do squat against people behind 50mm of plating. Spirit attacks need to reach their target, and again it’s blocked by vehicular armor. A vehicle operator does not need to directly touch the armor because that’d just be bad design.

    Not every machine in the game is an enclosed vehicle. For instance, how would trebuchets protect its “crew”?

    #230757

    Nerdfish
    Member

    trebuchets doesn’t really care if you kill the crew man. The other army could just round up a few guys from a infantry unit to load the thing 😀

    #231405

    Shaithias
    Member

    So this easy SO SO SO very easy to do with a mod. You can take 15 minutes to read the modding guide included in the game and then take another 15 minutes to learn where the machine entity is and another 5 to make all the necessary changes to each machine.

    I don’t recommend paying me to make a mod for you, but I can always use lunch money! You should get me that 2 for 5 hamburger deal at burger king! 😛 contact me on steam lololol

    #231407

    Gloweye
    Member

    ‘The Battering Ram serves one purpose: Break down walls. Press a few of the local farmers to carry the thing. They don’t need training. It’s just a big log. You bash it. If the guys on the wall kill the guys with the ram, there are plenty of farmers ready to take their place.’

    –How to Kill Things Cheaply, by Groktok the Warlord

    #231410

    kwibus
    Member

    I haven’t really read through this thread, but as a Theocrat seeing a Dreadnought is always an “oh crap” moment for me.
    Necro is also bad news seeing a Dreadnought, but bone collectors can hurt them if they reach them that is.

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