WL Balance Discussion

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Balance Suggestions WL Balance Discussion

This topic contains 172 replies, has 19 voices, and was last updated by  Draxynnic 6 years, 11 months ago.

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  • #218710

    ExNihil
    Member

    Hi Guys, due to the discussion that started in the racial balancing thread I think we could do with a WL specific discussion.

    So I’ll be brief here and lets see what discussion emerges here. IMO there is a single issue in MP that we need to consider regarding WL and it is that WL doesn’t really offer great options with its class units when these are compared to what it can do with racial units, which by and by means that pretty much from Berserkers until Manticore Riders this class focuses on Racial Units. Furthermore, because it has the best synergy with cavalry units, some races are clearly better choices here, and since Humans have very powerful RG upgrades to cavalry + evolving t2 cavalry, they become the best combo by far (or at least the easiest to master and probably most powerful in most situations.) I therefore think that some changes to the WL are not a bad idea – although I would prefer leaving these to the discussion. I could think of some changes to the class units themselves, and perhaps also think of better ways for this class to synergize with Infantry – which weirdly it doesn’t do as well as Rogue. Also some changes to the research tree and the RP amounts might be due here. We should also consider the necessity of some nerfs (to humans perhaps, or all over).

    So, please share your opinions and ideas.

    #218711

    Ericridge
    Member

    Warlord is in a good place right now. Cannot find a reason to complain about them.

    #218719

    ExNihil
    Member

    Well, I already wrote what I think is an issue, namely nobody has a reason to use Mounted Archers and esp. Phalanx and Warbreed in MP – they are RP expansive, require special buildings and don’t give you anything you can’t really get from racial units with better results for a cheaper price.

    Also, some problems are:

    1. Warbreed is a Monster unit, rather than Infantry, thus not receiving tech buffs from WL.

    2. Phalanx are really not cutting it when compared with some racial pike units (both t1/2 units), that have a much better price-performance ratio and don’t require tech.

    3. Mounted Archer is sort of crap, the HE variation is very good but expansive, so it’s a question what to go for – cheap(er) archers with the same kind of bang, or this mobile unit. All other racial variations are simply muhhh, and thus this unit is IMO crappy.

    4. WL synergizes esp. with cavalry, and its buff to infantry is powerful but not very specific. I wouldn’t mind seeing an Infantry / Pike specific buff, perhaps with a small reduction to the cavalry buff (+10HP instead of +15HP, or +5HP and +2 defense instead).

    5. Human RG3 is very very powerful when combined with WL tech and evolving t2 cavalry, I think it needs to be replaced to balance this combo a bit.

    #218740

    NINJEW
    Member

    berserkers and monster hunters are pretty central to most warlord strats i’ve seen

    they’re in a pretty good place imo where they can go racial heavy or class unit heavy and do pretty well

    #218742

    ExNihil
    Member

    Yup, but these are the only two units that are used except manticore riders – in games that last this long. When was the last time you saw someone build phalanx for example?

    #218744

    Ericridge
    Member

    1. Warbreed is a monster unit because it is a mixture of humanoid + ogre.

    2. Phalanx is best pikes in aow3. They are tier 3 and capable of bringing down manticores. Something which tier 1/2 pikes cannot do. Of course there is new tier 4 pikes now.

    3. Mounted Archers is beautiful for sweeping walled cities defended by nothing but archers. HE version is even more better at this job.

    4. You probably have a point there. But Warlord have Training Regiment + Garrison’s Honor + Conqueror. And if you look closely, you will see that warlord have speedy class infantry units. 32 movement minimum with warbreed at 36 and manticore at 30.

    5. Doesn’t need replacement. Going from a elite cavalry to recruit knight is a downgrade that only pays off when knight survives to reach elite. And plus I never take RG3 for cavalry boosted exp. I prefer the economic upgrade because I play on XL maps. And once global assault swings in. You will want to recruit knights instead of cavalry because knights will be elite, while cavalry will autopromote into recruit knights.

    That’s how I see it anyways.

    #218748

    Imho this is one of the better balanced classes.

    I find racial Cav backed up by mounted archers a pretty deadly combo…

    #218760

    ExNihil
    Member

    Why use mounted archers? Also, its sure is deadly, but noone uses phalanx and warbreed cuz’ they are not worthwhile. And I rarely see mounted archers.

    #218766

    madmac
    Member

    If you don’t think Mounted Archers and Warbreeds are crazy good I don’t know what to tell you. They’re both incredible units.

    Phalanxes are also very strong, just matchup specific. I find they are most useful in Warlord mirror fights as they hard counter Cavalry armies (Up to and including Manticores) so very well.

    Imho this is one of the better balanced classes.

    Agreed. Aside from maybe throwing Draconians a small bone there’s really nothing about Warlords I want to change. I think it may be the best balanced class in the game right now.

    #218774

    Voyager I
    Member

    As someone who plays a fair amount of Warlord, my only real complaint is how heavily your early game hinges on whether or not the spellbook RNG gives you Training Regimen in a reasonable amount of time. This has an almost certainly unintended effect on specialization choices as weeding out unwanted empire upgrades becomes just as important as what the spec actually offers you.

    Even if having something like Training Regimen as a guaranteed starting spell (similar to how Dreadnaughts now always start with Mana Fuel Cells researched) might be too much of a boon, having the timing of the class’s core buff be a bit more predictable would make me feel much more comfortable taking it into MP.

    Draconians have little synergy with the Warlord’s strengths, but they do a great job of compensating for its weaknesses. It would be nice if they had something a little more exciting than climbing walls and fast healing, but those are two pretty big deal.

    #218784

    If you don’t think Mounted Archers and Warbreeds are crazy good I don’t know what to tell you. They’re both incredible units.

    It is probably because he plays a lot of sorcs, and warbreed are useless fighting them, and you don’t want to bring archers to fight phantasm warriors or projectile resistance supports.

    #218791

    Lykus
    Member

    Well, I already wrote what I think is an issue, namely nobody has a reason to use Mounted Archers and esp. Phalanx and Warbreed in MP – they are RP expansive, require special buildings and don’t give you anything you can’t really get from racial units with better results for a cheaper price.

    I thought that longbow mounted archers are one reason why the HE Wl is one of the best?

    #218794

    Lykus
    Member

    Well, I already wrote what I think is an issue, namely nobody has a reason to use Mounted Archers and esp. Phalanx and Warbreed in MP – they are RP expansive, require special buildings and don’t give you anything you can’t really get from racial units with better results for a cheaper price.

    Also, some problems are:

    1. Warbreed is a Monster unit, rather than Infantry, thus not receiving tech buffs from WL.

    2. Phalanx are really not cutting it when compared with some racial pike units (both t1/2 units), that have a much better price-performance ratio and don’t require tech.

    3. Mounted Archer is sort of crap, the HE variation is very good but expansive, so it’s a question what to go for – cheap(er) archers with the same kind of bang, or this mobile unit. All other racial variations are simply muhhh, and thus this unit is IMO crappy.

    4. WL synergizes esp. with cavalry, and its buff to infantry is powerful but not very specific. I wouldn’t mind seeing an Infantry / Pike specific buff, perhaps with a small reduction to the cavalry buff (+10HP instead of +15HP, or +5HP and +2 defense instead).

    5. Human RG3 is very very powerful when combined with WL tech and evolving t2 cavalry, I think it needs to be replaced to balance this combo a bit.

    I just have one quik question. Are these your personal experiences (by that i mean did you play Wl or did you play against it (if yes to the second which class did you use))?

    #218807

    NINJEW
    Member

    mounted archers are kind of amazing, i thought? they benefit from thoroughbred mounts, are tanky, have sprint, and keep up with your warlord cavstacks as well. HE, Human, and Halfling archers all have very respectable damage output as well.

    also warbreeds are mostly not used because the research to get there is kind of huge. if i ever was in a state where i was able to get warbreeds researched you bet i’d use them, they’re one of the best units in the game imo, they’re just so high up the research tree that it’s not really worth going for them over empire buffs that make all the units you already own better sooner, rather than giving you access to a good, expensive unit that then must be produced before you get any benefit out of that research.

    also yeah no one in their right mind is gonna use warbreeds against a sorcerer. or a theocrat or a rogue, for that matter. low res + lack of mind control immunity really hurts the big, beefy supermonster against the “supports everywhere that also get stuns” class and the “convert/seduce all day every day” classes

    #218811

    madmac
    Member

    also yeah no one in their right mind is gonna use warbreeds against a sorcerer. or a theocrat or a rogue, for that matter. low res + lack of mind control immunity really hurts the big, beefy supermonster against the “supports everywhere that also get stuns” class and the “convert/seduce all day every day” classes
    .

    True, though don’t forget the Warlord should have his stack-wide strong will skill by the time they roll out.

    #218820

    ExNihil
    Member

    I just have one quik question. Are these your personal experiences (by that i mean did you play Wl or did you play against it (if yes to the second which class did you use))?

    Both, I play WL quite a bit these days, and it is very common in MP as well (these days, once it was never used). Last time I actually was WL vs WL, but before that it was Theo and Sorc iirc when I played against it.

    I thought that longbow mounted archers are one reason why the HE Wl is one of the best?

    Absolutely, but this is the single exception to the rule – LB Mounted Archers are great units, but the short-bow variation is a rather mediocre archer unit with a high price. True, it can get more HP nowdays from tech, but I would much prefer having some elemental damage using ranged supports or archer units. I also fail to see the advantage of mounted archers over normal cavalry units – cavalry usually have better stats and a better ability package, and once Martial Arts is unlocked there is a clear bias towards melee units.

    Basic Mounted Archers cost 100 gold (before discount), have 50HP at BL and 70HP at gold, 10 def / 9 res at BL and 12def / 10 res at GM, and have Sprint at BL and receive Projectile Resistance at GM, alongside the Shoot-Bow attack with a base of 10, GM 14 (medium ranged), it has Melee Strike 10 (also 10 at GM). This unit is not cavalry though, so it doesn’t have charge. Compare this with the following racial t2 cav units:

    D. Raptor: 90 Gold, has at BL 55HP, 11def / 9 res, 40% Fire Res. and Melee Strike 6phy / 6fire melee attack and charge. At GM it has 75HP, 13def / 10 res, Melee Strike 8 phy / 8 fire, 80% fire resistance, Inflict Scorching Heat and Inflict Immolation. and 40% fire res., at GM it has that increases to 80 on GM + 2 abilities.

    H. Cavalry: 90 gold, has 55HP, 12 def / 9 res, melee strike 12, armored, Armored, charge and OFC evolve. At GM it becomes a Human Knight, but otherwise it would have had 14 def / 12 res, melee strike 16 and Inflict Bleeding Wounds.

    F. Mammoth Rider: 110 gold, has 80HP, 9 def / 9 res. melee strike 15, charge AND devastating charge, fast embark, frost immunity, and at GM it has 100 GP, 11 def / 10 res, Inflict Crippling Wounds and Killing Momentum

    O. Black Knight: 100 gold, 60HP, 12 def / 8 res, melee strike 13, armored, war cry, charge, polearm. And at GM it has 80HP, 14 def, 9 res, Armor Piercing and Overwhelm.

    I didn’t include in this list the Unicorn Riders because HE is the only instance in which I’d consider actually producing this unit. So, basically all of these cavalry units offer a much better deal than the mounted archer. When sieging mounted archers are not something I’d consider using except when I have seeker, and then I’d prefer using either trebs or support units. When defending a wall Mounted archers have a very marginal advantage over racial archers, so the only scenario in which they are useful IMO is pitched battle – and in this scenario cavalry do you better almost all the time (unless the opponent has static shield or crazy melee damage).

    It is probably because he plays a lot of sorcs, and warbreed are useless fighting them, and you don’t want to bring archers to fight phantasm warriors or projectile resistance supports.

    I play the following classes often: Sorc. AD, Theo and WL. I dislike Rogue, I have little experience with Necro, and I don’t really enjoy DN. This has nothing to do with Sorcerer, it’s simply a question of economics and what you get out of it, and I’m not alone in thinking this in my experience. I asked Ninjew when was the last time he saw someone using phalanx in MP, I must say I have seen that on very rare occasions indeed. Mounted Archers are more common, because they are low tier, but usually I’d say they are effective as part of rush stacks – mingling with lots of irregulars, aside from that I don’t really see them as well, and I don’t find them to be much good. Warbreed is just crazy expansive and very high up the tech tree, so no advantage there, and manticore riders give you much more so its better to focus on these.

    #218824

    ExNihil
    Member

    Phalanxes are also very strong, just matchup specific. I find they are most useful in Warlord mirror fights as they hard counter Cavalry armies (Up to and including Manticores) so very well.

    Compare Phalanx to the good racial pike units, price wise and ability wise, this unit doesn’t cut it IMO.

    Phalanx: 65HP, 12 def / 11 res, 140 gold + 30 mana (16 gold/turn upkeep). Has Melee Strike 16, Inflict Crippling Wounds, Shield, Pike Square, Armored, First Strike and Polearm. Received Armor Piercing on BM and Tireless at GM, +30HP and +4 melee damage at GM.
    Racial Variations:
    Dwarf costs +20 gold and 3 mana, has defensive strike
    Goblins cost -5 gold and -3 mana and receive Life Steal
    Forstlings cost the same and have Frost Weapons (-4 physical +5 frost)
    Orcs cost +20 gold and +3 mana and receive War Cry
    Tigrans cost +15 gold and receive Sun Shield, and at BM Coup de Grace.

    t1 pike units, receive +14HP at gold medal, cost 4 gold/turn main.:

    T. Sun Guard: 48HP, 10def / 8 res, melee strike 10, Sun Shield (the same as racial variation), Guard breaker, and receives Coup de Grace at BM and Projectile Resistance at GM. Costs 60 gold (-95 gold / -30 mana)

    O. Impaler: 50HP, 10def / 8 res, Melee Strike 12, War Cry, Armored, receives Armor Piercing at GM. Costs 50 gold (-110 gold / -33 mana)

    t2 pike units, receive +20HP at gold medal, 8 gold / turn main.:

    F. Royal Guard: 55GP, 9def / 9 res, Melee Strike 7 phys / 5 frost (-4 dmg comparison to phalanx). Pledge of Protection, Explosive Ice Death, Inflict Frostbite, Arctic Concealment and Fast Embark. Receives Armor Piercing at BM and Tireless at GM (same as Phalanx). Costs 75 gold / 10 mana (-65 gold / -20 mana)

    G. Butcher: 55HP, 11 def / 9 res. Melee Strike 13, Life Steal (same as racial phalanx). Receives Volunteer and Armor Piercing at BM and Inflict Bleeding Wounds at GM. Costs 81 gold (-54 gold / -27 mana)

    #218833

    Voyager I
    Member

    Phalanxes are also very strong, just matchup specific. I find they are most useful in Warlord mirror fights as they hard counter Cavalry armies (Up to and including Manticores) so very well.

    Compare Phalanx to the good racial pike units, price wise and ability wise, this unit doesn’t cut it IMO.

    Agreed that Butchers are fantastic units and I would be in no hurry to get Phalanxes rolling as a Goblin, but only two races have T2 pikes and by the time Phalanx are available the game has probably reached a point where T1 pikes struggle just to stay alive on the battlefield.

    I love Goblins and don’t want them to be nerfed but Butchers getting 55 hp and 13 damage is actually somewhat anomalous.

    EDIT: Give Draconian MA fire bombs!

    #218836

    ExNihil
    Member

    Its very difficult to mass produce phalanxes in large quantities. I would rather use t2 pikes, or the two racial t1 pikes I wrote above, or black-knights, or draconian chargers with lesser flight and regrowth. All are much much less expansive, can be stacked very quickly and esp. don’t require a shitload of research to unlock.

    WL is the single most research expansive class in the game iirc, to unlock its units it needs much more RP than Sorcerer – for example. This makes these units nonviable, when combined with their high price, large maintenance and in the case of phalanx – negligible contribution, I don’t see any reason to use these units.

    #218839

    ExNihil
    Member

    Also, as for RG upgrades that effect racial pike units (not including RG5 upgrades):

    Tigrans buff Sun Guard at RG1 (+7HP)
    Draconians buff Charger at RG2 (Regrowth)
    Dwarfs buff Deepguard at RG2 (+2 physical dmg) – this one is crappy, but with armored and the price difference I’d still pick it over Phalanx.
    Frostling buff Royal Guard at RG2 (+1 def and Life Stealing) – fucking gr8!
    Orcs buff Imapler at RG1 (+1 melee) and Black Knights at RG3 (+1 melee and Guard Breaker)

    Also consider that all armored units, while vulnerable to armor piercing, can receive enchanted armor upgrade from MCU on top of the regular pike unit upgrades.

    #218843

    Voyager I
    Member

    They’re very lategame units. In a typical MP game they won’t come out, and that’s fine because Warlord isn’t relying on them for anything other than lategame problems. By the time you are in a position where they are practical to build, your opponent is presumably going to be similarly developed and you will both be fielding multi-stack armies of quality units lead by high-level heroes.

    T1s aren’t going to hold up in that environment; no matter how many of them you build, your heroes can only buff a stack at a time and a finite number get to fight in any given battle. You can start having more stacks of T2s than can fit in one battle by like Turn 40, if not earlier, so trying to mass T1 Pikes when T3s are rolling around is going to result in them getting torn apart a few stacks at a time.

    Going up a tier is basically never cost-efficient in a direct comparison of money to stats, but you have to also consider the circumstances under which battles and armies are produced. Your twelve stacks of Halberdiers can’t all fight in the same battle and your cities can’t produce them in batches no matter how much extra production they have, so it’s very realistic to end up in situations where Phalanx production will give you a better use of resources and a faster accumulation of power than T1s.

    #218846

    Wallthing
    Member

    +3/4 damage, shield, +2 base res, can take advantage of crystal trees, extra 10 base health, more movement speed – this stuff doesn’t seem significant enough? The Phalanx is more versatile, more dangerous, and tougher than any racial pike except maybe a Shadowborn necromancer’s cracked out Royal Guards & Butchers.

    I think you’re also underestimating basic mounted archers. All those racial cavalry units are nice and they certainly have their own advantages but a mounted archer is making 2-3 attacks every round (instead of 1) and taking maybe 1 hit/round from the target in return, they can flank the hell out of stuff, don’t slow your armies down, and are quite tough for units that don’t have to suck up a lot of hits.

    I have little interest in multiplayer for this game (or most others), but even if you’re losing a monetary advantage by producing higher-tier units, you’re gaining a turn and gold advantage (or closing the gap) every time a high tier unit survives a fight that a lower-tier unit would’ve died in. Like Voyager said, this kind of thing can become important eventually. Or back when I still played MP stuff a lot it was.

    #218862

    As possibly the earliest Warlord advocate on the forums, and the guy who arguably pushed the hardest for field medic and a Scout ability (although I favoured a scanner type ability and we got a unit)…

    I have to say I quite like where WL is.now.

    They can reasonably compete in early game, and with luck their Scouts can grab the water based (usually undefended) water resources quickly.

    Then mid and late game are lots of fun.

    I don’t really think this class needs much more.doing to it.

    Then again, since Eternal Lords.beta started, only half of my playtime has been Warlord.

    Theocrat is my number 2 class, which I never expected
    ..

    Still dislike Rogues..

    #218863

    Zaskow
    Member

    1. Warbreed is a Monster unit, rather than Infantry, thus not receiving tech buffs from WL.

    Agreed with that. Adding “infantry” tag could fix all problems.

    Also nobody didn’t notice big problem with WL.
    Huge advantage of Elven Mount archers. Other MAs don’t worth buying simply, when compare with Elven MAs.

    #218864

    NINJEW
    Member

    yeah that’s kind of how elves work zaskow

    human and halfling MA are still good though, and work making

    #218866

    ExNihil
    Member

    They’re very lategame units. In a typical MP game they won’t come out, and that’s fine because Warlord isn’t relying on them for anything other than lategame problems. By the time you are in a position where they are practical to build, your opponent is presumably going to be similarly developed and you will both be fielding multi-stack armies of quality units lead by high-level heroes.

    MP gets to t4 units in some games with WL. Its a question of RP costs. It costs 400RP and Gold/Mana costs.

    Phalanx 400RP
    Warbreed 800RP
    Manticore Rider 1200RP

    Phalanx cost too much money for the stage of the game at which they are unlocked, you simply get cavalry at a lower price and with great performance on the battlefield, and with better mobility. If you require pike-units (because you have an opponent that uses a shitload of cavalry or because you are fighting flyers), you can use racial units at a much lower price – in mid-game. These units are spammable and ghave lower maintanace. You can maintain 4 t1 pike units and 2 t2 units for what a single phalanx costs per turn, and you can produce 3 x t1 pikes and almost 2 x t2 pikes for the same production cost. Although this unit receives the two pikeman abilities, against most enemies t3 cavalry units with +15HP would be better than pikeman, and even against flying/mounted targets these units would have pretty much equal defense: 15HP equals five rounds of pike square damage reduction, and is OFC effective against all attacks – physical or elemental, and would equal almost always at least one more round of useful in which damage could be dealt, thus even with less DPS vs. flying/mounted units, these units could dish out almost equal damage while being both cheaper and tankier. Here is a comparison of the performance of a human knight and a phalanx at BL vs. a gryphon rider:

    Phalanx base dmg + polearm vs. flying units = 21, Phalanx base defense against flying units + shield bonus = 17. Total HP = 65

    Human Knight base dmg = 16, Knight base defense + shield bonus = 15. Total HP + Thoroughbred Mounts bonus = 80.

    Phalanx attack 1 vs GR: 10 + (21 – 12) = 19
    Gryphon Rider retaliation 1: 10 + (15 – 17) = 8
    Phalanx attack 2 vs GR: 10 + (21 – 12) = 19
    Gryphon Rider retaliation 2: 10 + (15 – 17) = 8
    Phalanx attack 3 vs GR: 10 + (21 – 12) = 19
    Gryphon Rider retaliation 3: 10 + (15 – 17) = 8
    Phalanx attack 4 vs GR: 10 + (21 – 12) = 19

    Gryphon Rider is dead, Phalanx remains with 41 HP.

    Knight attack 1 vs GR: 10 + (16 – 12) = 14
    Gryphon Rider retaliation 1: 10 + (15 – 15) = 10
    Knight attack 2 vs GR: 10 + (16 – 12) = 14
    Gryphon Rider retaliation 2: 10 + (15 – 15) = 10
    Knight attack 2 vs GR: 10 + (16 – 12) = 14
    Gryphon Rider retaliation 2: 10 + (15 – 15) = 10
    Knight attack 2 vs GR: 10 + (16 – 12) = 14
    Gryphon Rider retaliation 2: 10 + (15 – 15) = 10
    Knight attack 1 vs GR: 10 + (16 – 12) = 14

    Gryphon Rider is dead, Knight remains with 40HP

    Mind you – Human Knights have devastating charge, which means they can be used quite more effectively against any unit that doesn’t have first strike. Also mind you that human knights are unlocked through a building, do not require research, cost less AND OFC can also be evolved from t2 units. But even if we consider a unit that doesn’t have this unique trait (evolve), a t3 racial cavalry will do you better than a phalanx in almost all situations. Than there are the racial infantry t3 units – a draconian flyer is basically an anti-pike unit, best racial, and it has flying – so alltogether its more useful. Shock Troopers are also more useful due to Guard Breaker, and even without the +15 HP they are simply more useful. So this leaves First Born, which are slow – but still a better unit in combat than Phalanx, dual channel damage, very taugh to kill and excellent leveling. So pretty much except Ice-Queens and Sphinxes, I wouldn’t pick Phalanx over any racial t3 unit.

    Now to Warbreed. This is a good unit, but it unlocks too late. By the time I have the means to tackle an 800RP tech, I can continue straight for Manticore Riders. I would not attempt this research with less than 100RP a turn, which is pretty low, and would probably have around 150-180RP at least if I go for it. The amount of production a single Warbreed requires is between 200 to 210 for the Human variation, and 220 for the Orcish one. This unit does not benefit from Martial Arts training and is not discounted by training regimen. Compare this to the price of a Human Knight with Training Regiman, which is 162 production units, a Human Knight, which is 153, or -57 production units (not considering evolve OFC).

    Human Knight BL stats: HP = 80, Defense = 17, Defense against retaliations (MA training) = 21, Melee Strike = 16

    Human Knight GM stats: HP = 110, Defense = 19, Defense against retaliations (MA training) = 23, Melee Strike = 20

    Warbreed BL stats: HP = 80, Defense = 12, Melee Strike = 20 Has regrowth, which allows it to regenerate 16HP on the start of the player’s round at BL.

    Warbreed GM HP stats = 110, Defense = 14, Melee Strike = 24 Has regrowth, which allows it to regenerate 22HP on the start of the player’s round at GM.

    Matchup in BL:

    Knight attack 1 vs WB: 10 + (16 – 12) = 14
    Warbreed retaliation 1: 10 + (20 – 21) = 9
    Knight attack 2 vs WB: 10 + (16 – 12) = 14
    Warbreed retaliation 2: 10 + (20 – 21) = 9
    Knight attack 3 vs WB: 10 + (16 – 12) = 14
    Warbreed retaliation 3: 10 + (20 – 21) = 9

    Knight remains with 53HP, Warbreed has 38HP and regenerates 16HP, thus it has 54HP

    Knight attack 4 vs WB: 10 + (16 – 12) = 14
    Warbreed retaliation 4: 10 + (20 – 21) = 9
    Knight attack 5 vs WB: 10 + (16 – 12) = 14
    Warbreed retaliation 5: 10 + (20 – 21) = 9
    Knight attack 5 vs WB: 10 + (16 – 12) = 14
    Warbreed retaliation 5: 10 + (20 – 21) = 9

    Knight remains with 25HP, Warbreed has 12HP and regenerates 16HP, thus it has 28HP

    Knight attack 4 vs WB: 10 + (16 – 12) = 14
    Warbreed retaliation 4: 10 + (20 – 21) = 9
    Knight attack 5 vs WB: 10 + (16 – 12) = 14
    Warbreed retaliation 5: 10 + (20 – 21) = 9

    Warbreed dies, Knight remains with 7HP. These numbers mean that Gryphon Riders would lose to a warbreed, marginally, but if they charge when attacking they would win. Eagle Riders would either die or win based on lucky. Big Beetle would probably die even when charging, but would leave the Warbreed on the threshold of death. Shock Trooper would probably lose at BL, depending on how Inflict Bleeding Wounds pens out, but at BM with Warcry it would win.

    I would therefore stick to racial t3 units, preferably cavalry ones, and not produce any Warbreed until I can start pumping out Manticore Riders.

    T1s aren’t going to hold up in that environment; no matter how many of them you build, your heroes can only buff a stack at a time and a finite number get to fight in any given battle. You can start having more stacks of T2s than can fit in one battle by like Turn 40, if not earlier, so trying to mass T1 Pikes when T3s are rolling around is going to result in them getting torn apart a few stacks at a time.

    When t3s are rolling t2s are viable units, esp. with WL buffs AND considering the way they are buffed through RG upgrades even Chargers and Sun Guards will do fine. When t4s are rolling its most rational to stick to racial t3s until manticore riders can be fielded. With all due respect the +4MP of Phalanx is simply not impressive enough.

    #218867

    madmac
    Member

    There’s no bad version of Mounted Archers really. Just the merely very good and the ridiculously good versions.

    I’m probably biased because I main Druid and am therefore used to trying to get a stupid amount of mileage out of T1 Archers, but Mounted Archers are simply Archers+++ in every respect and even the base versions are very reliable and cost effective units in most situations.

    Also giving Warbreed the infantry tag would make them ridiculously OP.

    #218868

    ExNihil
    Member

    human and halfling MA are still good though, and work making

    With humans I’d stick with archers and priests, with Halflings perhaps, or I’d just use another race – which is usually simply a better option here, unless you are stuck with Dwarves. But than again, I’d simply stick with cavalry units, mounted archers are not as versatile and they wouldn’t get the martial arts bonus – which is sorta ridiculous, but it is what it is.

    #218870

    ExNihil
    Member

    I suggest to buff Phalanx somehow, perhaps by decreasing its price simply. And I also suggest to reduce to RP cost of Warbreed from 800RP to 600RP. Warbreed should receive the Infantry label for the Martial Arts buff, which would open it up to MCU upgrades and remove its vulnerability to Monster Slayer (which is a problem). I don’t think its going to be OP at all, but this could go hand in hand with an increase to its price to keep it expansive even with Training Regimen applied.

    #218871

    NINJEW
    Member

    why would you pick the normal racial archers over MA

    MA are way better

    they start with blessed arrows dude, normal archers need to get to gold for that

    also honestly i’d rather have the ability to produce warbreeds than manticores. whenever i’ve played around with manticores they felt fairly underwhelming compared to their cost, while warbreeds are kind of awesome

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