WL Balance Discussion

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Balance Suggestions WL Balance Discussion

This topic contains 172 replies, has 19 voices, and was last updated by  Draxynnic 7 years ago.

Viewing 23 posts - 151 through 173 (of 173 total)
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  • #219940

    NINJEW
    Member

    i’m pretty ok with where MH are right now. they give warlord a really good scout killer that also doubles as a scout that won’t lose scout fights.

    the base MH getting shoot light crossbow kinda blows, though i do like how, as irregulars are hybrid melee/ranged units, the racial variants get the same attack as single shot archers (dwarf MH get heavy crossbow, the same way their archer uses heavy crossbow. halflings get shoot fireworks, the same way their archer gets shoot fireworks. frostlings get throw harpoon, the same way their archer gets throw harpoon). i think this is a pretty cool way of reflecting how these racial archers are already leaning towards being irregulars, and preserving that same kind of tactic in the warlord’s class units.

    to that end, i think that throw firebomb on draconian MH would be better fitting than fire spit. i can’t imagine that that wasn’t the first thought for the devs, though, which makes me wonder why they went for fire spit instead of firebomb. was it overpowered? it suppose it would usurp halfling’s position as “best MH” which is more or less the only thing halfling warlord has going for it.

    perhaps in general they could get a minor damage buff? +1 melee +1 ranged? they have the power of a t1 for both, which in theory means that they have versatile options but in practice means that, outside of scout fights, they’re not terribly useful for the warlord, unless they’re one of the varients with a superranged attack (in which case they’re jsut used as archers instead of irregulars)

    in particular, i think their melee could do with some buffing, since melee/ranged hybrid would usually mean that they’d whittle their opponent down with ranged attacks, then go in for the kill with melee on a weakened opponent (fitting for a “hunter”), but their melee isn’t really all that much better than just closing into 3 hex range and shooting with their crossbow again, and also carries the risk of being hit back.

    #219942

    NINJEW
    Member

    if they had some kind of coup de grace mechanic on their melee, along with a disability status effect on their ranged that would proc it, i think that’d make for a pretty cool unit. it’d require quite a bit of rebalancing and introducing new abilities though (i believe coup de grace works on ranged attacks too? also, giving every MH something like stun or “inflict net” on their ranged attacks would definitely be OP. i’m thinking something along the lines of proccing on, say, inflict crippling wound, though that’d make them too similar to scoundrels)

    #219950

    ExNihil
    Member

    MHs are used as counter Sorcerer/AD/Dwellings unit with their range of slayer traits. Problem is you can get better results all round with other units- racials, cav., and Berserkers/MAs. The thing they are best in is scouting basically, and since WL has scouts this became sorts redundant.

    What if they can be switched with Berserkers on the tech tree and have their costs accordingly reduced?

    Crazy option B: how about they are switched with MA, get a price increase and receive a shapeshift into were something form?

    #219963

    NINJEW
    Member

    eh. they’re different from warlord scouts. they’re “scout hunters” for one, and also you cna put 2 of them together for a scout group that won’t get destroyed by roamers (which regular scouts absolutely will). they’re useful as warlord’s most mobile means of projecting force (even moreso than cav, since MH can swim and get through mountains easily). they fill a pretty significant role that warlord needs, it just doesn’t need very much of that role, so MH tend to end up (in my experience) a unit that everyone builds a little, but no one actually builds a lot of (exception being halfling warlord). having a single MH in your main army to snipe prying crows and destroy AD hunters is plenty useful, but having more than 1 per multi-stack army isn’t generally a good idea.

    i don’t think they really need something crazy done to make them immensely more valuable, they just need a small change so that having them around in a big fight isn’t mostly a waste of an army slot.

    this is, of course, a problem with irregulars in general (they favor small fights and outnumbering their opponent, which is fitting for a hunter of monsters), but as a T2 irregular that is also somewhat pricey i think they could do a bit better in large fights than they currently do. assassins, after all, are incredibly useful in both big fights and small fights (though obviously they’re even better in small fights). MH don’t need to be as good as assassins, but they could do with a small boost in that direction.

    i suppose to look at other examples, the t3 irregular is the sphinx, which has high mobility and a devastating multi-target short-ranged attack. the node serpent is essentially a very big irregular, as it has very high mobility options (both phase and sprint!) that allow it to easily get flanks on vulnerable targets, where its powerful melee quickly cuts them down.

    so, T3 irregulars tend to be a combination of “high mobility options” combined with “high alphastrike potential, without suffering retaliation.” this is, indeed, the same idea behind the assassin: their high movement lets them get to good positions on the battlefield easily, and assassin’s strike lets them deal a huge amount of damage without giving their opponent a chance to strike back. in all these cases, as well, the irregular is left incredibly open to counterattack, and doesn’t have the defensive stats to back up being in such a poor position.

    t1 irregulars (which the MH is a beefed up version of, in the same way that assassins are like a toned down version of the T3 irregulars) tend to operate under the “death of a thousand paper cuts” strategy. they use their high mobility and single shot ranged damage to stay out of reach of their target while using their greater numbers to chip the target out. they utilize chain flanking to increase their damage and chip the target out faster, which is a tactic that works great in fights with a relatively small number of combatants and gets severely blunted by larger numbers of participants (as there is less space to maneuver around to and it’s much harder to stay out of reach of multiple targets).

    i suppose in that sense, it might work better to shift MH more towards smaller fights, and give them more options to be used as a harassing tool, a unit that you build a fair number of and have them stick together to snipe lone reinforcement stacks. my understanding is this is essentially how MH centric strategies, like halfling warlord, already operate. the only thing i can think of that would encourage this is concealment options, like the AD hunter or rogue’s units (which both are the poster childs for this type of gameplay), but that is probably pretty unnecessary. i think a slight damage buff would be good for this as well, since as it currently stands MH are rather underwhelming for a T2 damage-wise, unless they’re a variant with a beefed up ranged attack.

    in any case, i think that if changes are made to the MH, it should be fairly minor. i think they’re in a pretty good place balance wise as it stands, i’d mostly just like changes from the perspective of “reason to use this unit a little more” since it doesn’t really see much heavy use (though small use of it is pretty common). it’d be more fun, but maintaining proper balance should be a higher priority, in this case.

    #219964

    Some could get ranged elemental damage and some could get physical elemental damage.

    I definitely think one of them should get inflict severely poisoned – at some point.

    Basically, every culture\race should have its own unique take on how it handles Monsters, and this should be reflected.

    Dwarves are a good start with heavy Xbow.

    #219971

    ExNihil
    Member

    I think it’s weird this unit doesn’t have an inherent blight resistance, but does have frost, shock and fire resistances, since this is conceptually its strongest suit:

    “‘Nippling County’s swamp was filled with undisirables. Every winter when food got scarce, the swamp’s denizens would leave the swamp to snack on the villagers. The people complained to their Warlord who decided, rather than ignore his people, he’d train them to fight back. He trained the whole village of Nippling to be Monster Hunters. The next winter when the hungry creatures shambled from the bogs, the villagers used their newly acquired skills in slaying monsters with their crossbows and great swords. Within a decade, the citizens cleared the swamps of all predators larger than a tadpole.'”

    I would like to see at least 20% blight resistance in there. Perhaps Summon Slayer could be moved to recruit (BL!!!!! 🙂 ) or iron medal and undead slayer moved to IM or BM, and then Support Slayer would be introduced at SM. This set of changes would make it a better scout hunter, since Wisps would be on its damage buff from the start and lost souls would be there as early as possible. It would also make it an all-round support hunter with the physical resistances.

    Another option, which might be excessive but would be nice to see – perhaps with a cost increase – would be 20% of spirit resistance introduced at GM alongside throw net or alternatively, by placing Summon Slayer on recruit, Undead Slayer at Iron medal, and Support Slayer on Bronze or Silver medal, to introduce it on either Bronze Medal or Silver medal (depending on where Support Slayer is placed).

    #219979

    NINJEW
    Member

    i like the idea of having them pull dual duty as support hunters. going from monster hunting to general unnatural-things-hunting seems like a natural direction to take things, and would give WL a proper answer to support spam

    #220146

    ExNihil
    Member

    I’m running a play through to see exactly how many knights I manage to pump out in 30-35 turns, without monoculture. Can’t make a video cuz’ my laptop doesn’t support it, instead I’ll link in saves and screen shots once I’m done.

    #220189

    Draxynnic
    Member

    Basically, every culture\race should have its own unique take on how it handles Monsters, and this should be reflected.

    Which, at the risk of beating the tired old drum yet again, is part of the reason I don’t like fire spit MHs. Draconians typically live in hot environments where the local monsters have a good chance to be resistant or even immune to fire. Fire spit on their MHs makes no sense in that context.

    If we could justify a way for draconian MHs to use frost, that would suit their role better. Still, to me, a light crossbow seems a practical option for them to take… possibly using some sort of special bolt that helps with hunting. Goblins have poisoned bolts down – maybe draconian MHs could could be experts at knowing where to strike an enemy to hinder their movement and have Inflict Crippling Wounds?

    #220197

    @ Drax, I agreed with you then and now!

    #220216

    ExNihil
    Member

    Seems to me Orc MH is muh with throw javelin, perhaps it could get razor projectiles instead. Human could do with AP or blessed arrows on GM. HE could do with the archer label, opening it up to the racial +1 range damage and MCU upgrades.

    #220221

    NINJEW
    Member

    throw javelin has 0 functional difference with shoot light crossbow. that’s just the orc racial trait of -1 ranged damage.

    if we’re talking about human MH buffs, why not go with the usual human irregular trait, and give human MH throw net on recruit? could even bump up the gold ability from throw net to whatever that ranged net ability was.

    i don’t think different races should get differently labeled units, all MHs should remain irregulars (also the elf +1 ranged damage applies regardless of archer label, so elf MH already have the +1 damage)

    #220233

    Zaskow
    Member

    HE could do with the archer label, opening it up to the racial +1 range damage and MCU upgrades.

    Give them Lightning shock.

    Seems to me Orc MH is muh with throw javelin, perhaps it could get razor projectiles instead. Human could do with AP or blessed arrows on GM. HE could do with the archer label, opening it up to the racial +1 range damage and MCU upgrades.

    Orcs are always muh in range fight. I think Orc MH should be similar to AD hunter – javelin + shield + warcry.

    #220234

    ExNihil
    Member

    Possible to give HE +1 shock so it gets dual channel and full upgrade. Throw net at recruit is good for human with price increase and AP at gold.

    #220245

    NINJEW
    Member

    Possible to give HE +1 shock so it gets dual channel and full upgrade.

    i was thinking something along the same lines, though i quesiton if it’d be op or not. it follows suit with the initiate, the elf racial irregular, though dual channel ona unit made for flanking is pretty powerful. i believe elves get +1 shock ranged damage when shock already exists, as well as their +1 ranged damage, so that +1 is actually a +2 (i might be pulling this out of my ass, now that i type it i realize that i don’t know this for sure at all).

    in any case, i think such a buff would warrant a physical channel nerf on the unit. the goblin +4 blight damage on crossbow i think should remain strictly superior: that’s the goblin trait for all class irregulars, so i think the goblin irregular superiority should be preserved. although +2 shock damage is clearly a smaller amount than +4 blight damage, it’s important to also consider that shock is a better element: very very little is resistant to it, while blight resistance and immunity is just everywhere.

    #220262

    Hatmage
    Member

    I’ve proposed previously that rather than blessed arrows it would be cool for the human monster hunter to have a blessed/silver sword giving +2 spirit damage in melee. Also, I’d actually like javelins on draconian monster hunters, and atlatls. If they’re already pseudo-aztec, and there normal technology level makes crossbows questionable, it seems a good fit. But atlatls specifically would need new art, so I doubt it will happen.

    I also agree that some blight resistance fits, given how many monsters in both AoW and general mythology are venomous.

    #220263

    ExNihil
    Member

    I think the shock dmg will be balanced as is, OFC it means 2 points in shock with racial upgrade. But it could go with a -1 physical on ranged or melee.

    I like the silver sword idea!

    #220264

    Zaskow
    Member

    i was thinking something along the same lines, though i quesiton if it’d be op or not.

    Definitely not. Draco MH isn’t something special and they’re worse than Goblin, Dwarven and Halflings variants.

    i believe elves get +1 shock ranged damage when shock already exists, as well as their +1 ranged damage, so that +1 is actually a +2 (i might be pulling this out of my ass, now that i type it i realize that i don’t know this for sure at all).

    Incorrect. HE get only physical and shock bonus range damage. Lightning shock has 11 dmg at normal.

    it follows suit with the initiate, the elf racial irregular

    MHs are irregulars too. MHs are retrained Initiates.

    the goblin +4 blight damage on crossbow i think should remain strictly superior: that’s the goblin trait for all class irregulars, so i think the goblin irregular superiority should be preserved

    Debatable. Dwarf with 16 physical dmg and Halfling with 10 phys. + 5 fire + dazzle are not worse variants.

    it’s important to also consider that shock is a better element: very very little is resistant to it, while blight resistance and immunity is just everywhere.

    In combats you may suffer very much from less damage on your units. That’s why Draco MHs are crappy.

    #220273

    Fenraellis
    Member

    NINJEW wrote:

    i believe elves get +1 shock ranged damage when shock already exists, as well as their +1 ranged damage, so that +1 is actually a +2 (i might be pulling this out of my ass, now that i type it i realize that i don’t know this for sure at all).

    Incorrect. HE get only physical and shock bonus range damage. Lightning shock has 11 dmg at normal.

    He’s not, incorrect, though, and your own words don’t contradict him. Elves get +1 to the Physical and Shock damage channels for Ranged attacks. Which, understandably, only applies when the channels actually exist, and thus as NINJEW states, makes a +1 Shock ranged = +2.
    This is, of course, easiest to notice through a Vault of Knowledge enhanced(+2/+1 Phys/Shock) Elven Archer unit actually getting +2/+2 from the enhancement because they are adding the previously nonexistent Shock channel.

    #220281

    if we’re talking about human MH buffs, why not go with the usual human irregular trait, and give human MH throw net on recruit? could even bump up the gold ability from throw net to whatever that ranged net ability was

    That is a pretty hefty boost to an already great warlord race (not just the cavalry (but also the cavalry)).

    I sort of think that monster hunters relationship to monsters is like that of cavalry to pikes a while ago in the game balance. The counter unit did fine, better than non counter units, but not enough to make it really shine. The solution was pike square, so that cavalry started really having to watch out for pikes.

    So I’m thinking something similar here where monster hunters got a +2 defense and resistance (or +2 and +1) only when being attacked by a monster (possibly animal as well) unit.

    Otherwise, I think the Dwarf, Drac, and Frostling versions are the way to go. Humans could get a little spirit melee, and elves some shock at range (just one so it is two).

    #220294

    ExNihil
    Member

    Interesting! I still like the support slayer and blight / spirit res. suggestion best, but I think a defensive perk like you suggest is an interesting one and actually doesn’t contradict this- it could go together I’d say, with a price increase.

    #220299

    Zaskow
    Member

    MHs are good and usable units already. They don’t need any kinds of buffs, except some racial versions.

    #220313

    Draxynnic
    Member

    I’ve proposed previously that rather than blessed arrows it would be cool for the human monster hunter to have a blessed/silver sword giving +2 spirit damage in melee. Also, I’d actually like javelins on draconian monster hunters, and atlatls. If they’re already pseudo-aztec, and there normal technology level makes crossbows questionable, it seems a good fit. But atlatls specifically would need new art, so I doubt it will happen.

    I like the silver sword idea…

    Regarding the atlatl versus crossbow: While less tech-reliant than others, draconians do have the technology to make crossbows (they had repeating ballistae in Shadow Magic…). The often don’t use them because their natural abilities grant other options for ranged attacks, but for reasons discussed above it makes sense that specialised monster hunters would not want to rely on fire.

    MHs are irregulars too. MHs are retrained Initiates.

    A does not lead to B. Initiates are in training to become Storm Sisters – MHs are trained to fight monsters, without any religious instruction beyond the norm for their race.

    What COULD be interesting along those lines, however, and similar to Hatmage’s silver sword idea, could be if elven MHs had access to similar magic to Civic Guards granting them some shock damage in melee? After all, MHs are supposed to use a mix of melee and ranged attacks, not purely ranged.

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