Your favourite race and class

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Your favourite race and class

This topic contains 151 replies, has 44 voices, and was last updated by  NuMetal 6 years, 11 months ago.

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  • #210479

    Once again, there need not be a correlation between strength and popularity. You could make Goblins the most OP race in fantasy TBS history, and they still wouldn’t be my favorite, because I find them ugly and their play-style out of synch with mine.

    There doesn’t need to be a correlation, no, but in the case of Elves there does seem to be one.

    Correlation isn’t causation, of course. Maybe people just like Elves because they’re stylish. And sorcerers indeed are a bit boring to play.

    Taking myself as a sample size of one, though, I do like Elves specifically because they’re really good at many things. (Though I wouldn’t if their style actively irked me. See: Halflings.)

    On the other hand, I wouldn’t select a class for power. I just pick whatever I feel like playing.

    I suspect this may be true for more people: selecting a strong race (for your class/sphere combo) gives you a small bonus, which is nice. But class choice is so influential and important that simply going for power there can make for a more boring game. Because the choice of class is so important, people will be more likely to go for the one that fits their preferred play-style rather than the one that’s optimal.

    Or such is my speculation.

    #210499

    llfoso
    Member

    I feel like before 1.5 and eternal lords draconians would have done a lot better on both these polls. They used to be my favorite. Now I feel bad for them.

    #210509

    Hatmage
    Member

    This is because Sorcerer is boring as hell, despite being very good

    I feel this is also true of elves. The phasing, shocking and stunning are still there, the elves have a strong early game on count of their longbows, Their t3 gets the draconians’ flight, the orcs’ tirelessness, and can charge almost as well as a knight by always flanking. And none of these are units I find exciting or tactically complex to use.
    Compare them to humans or tigrans, who have interesting synergies between guard breaker, nets, multi-channel damage and Alpha-striking cavalry units to exploit, even before things specific to either race, or to the similarly synergistic goblins, or even the sprinting, curse throwing, self buffing and magic fearing orcs and you’ll see the elves are very much based on raw power over interesting abilities and tactics.
    I also dislike the fact that of the two elvish riders, neither can just ride a normal horse.

    #210527

    NINJEW
    Member

    Elves are actually pretty interesting to play as, because they have ranged superiority but don’t really like being hit. They have clear weakpoints and units to focus down, and things like Phasing Cavalry tend to open their own units up as well. So they have to play somewhat carefully with the tools they are given in order to dismantle the enemy formation while minimizing retaliation.

    What you’re describing is really far closer to Dwarves: their high stats lead to very effective but somewhat mindless strategies. You get in formation, you stay in formation, you grind against the enemy units until you win with your superior stats. Repeat every battle.

    It’s also true for Sorc because Phantasms can barely be scratched by most of the units your opponents are able to field, do very good damage, ignore obstacles by floating, and can be summoned directly onto your armies so you don’t even have to worry about troop transport logistics. The other side of your army has a mechanic that renders your opponent’s units totally helpless, so enough said.

    #210541

    Hatmage
    Member

    Elven infantry are nearly as tough as the dwarf brand and get first strike, Elven archers are armoured and get longbows, meaning they should seldom if ever take three full-strength hits from any foe, Union guards are a pikeneer, with a very good attack as a bonus and Elven cavalry are armoured, armour piercing and able to teleport, then get extra resistance on top of elven extra resistance, meaning they are quite survivable and get a damage bonus against most other cavalry, and many infantry and pikes, their supposed counterunit.

    None of those are units averse to getting hit, compared to what other races can field for the same job. Storm sisters have a resistance bonus, total awareness and stuns, which aren’t reliable, but make them tough by the standards of unarmoured supports. Gryphons are tireless and have first strike. Elves are almost as tanky as dwarves, and probably tankier than orcs, who have no total awareness, poor resistance and no shields, excepting on their irregulars. And ranged superiority means that truly dangerous foes can be easily focused down.

    Compare elves to humans or goblins and you’ll find that while humans have to bend over backward to preserve units who’ve unlocked their good gold medal abilities, and goblins need to exploit their synergies and gimmicks or just die, elves start with good abilities and gimmicks, despite having stats high enough to not need them. Arguably dwarves or frostlings, or tigrans in manual battles, are more powerful, but elves have a lot of raw power, and anywhere you lose an elf you’d have lost a human, orc or goblin faster. There are some opportunities to use elves with finesse, but it’s not necessary the way it is with men, goblins and even orcs.

    #210545

    I feel like before 1.5 and eternal lords draconians would have done a lot better on both these polls. They used to be my favorite. Now I feel bad for them.

    IIRC they didn’t get any nerfs. Why do you feel bad?

    I mean, regrowing Crushers and Chargers come out in a reasonable timeframe, and that’s powerful stuff.

    #210579

    Draxynnic
    Member

    Elven infantry are nearly as tough as the dwarf brand and get first strike, Elven archers are armoured and get longbows, meaning they should seldom if ever take three full-strength hits from any foe, Union guards are a pikeneer, with a very good attack as a bonus and Elven cavalry are armoured, armour piercing and able to teleport, then get extra resistance on top of elven extra resistance, meaning they are quite survivable and get a damage bonus against most other cavalry, and many infantry and pikes, their supposed counterunit.

    Elven infantry have less health, less damage, 20% Blight Vulnerability instead of 20% Blight Protection, lack Defensive Strike, and only get First Strike at gold.

    Union Guard have the same total attack as the tier 1 pikemen average, it’s just a dual-channel attack, which can be a double-edged sword (or spear) at times.

    Unicorn Riders have the same defence (11) as unarmoured cavalry such as Warg Riders and Raptors, so unless you have an additional bonus for armoured units (dreadnought, crystal tree mystic upgrade) they have all the weaknesses of being armoured without the bonus.

    A similar observation applies to longbowmen – they have Armoured, but their defense is still only average, so it means they take extra damage against armour piercing, not that they’re really any tougher than other archers apart from Flamers and Swarm Darters.

    Storm Sisters have the distinction of currently being arguably the only support that needs to get into melee range of their enemy to use their support ability… which has a chance of failure. (You could argue the Mystic, but that’s a different kettle of fish.)

    Gryphons are probably the best racial flyer, I’ll grant that, but your viewpoint on elves here seems very distorted to me. I certainly wouldn’t say they’re as tanky as you think they are – you definitely seem to be focusing on things that look good without looking at the complete picture (such as appearing to assume that ‘armoured’ means tankier without checking how the actual stats compare with equivalent units of other races).

    #210592

    Ericridge
    Member

    I see that I’m the only rebel that voted humans as the strongest race.

    #210597

    Nodor
    Member

    I see that I’m the only rebel that voted humans as the strongest race.

    The human +10 production is very strong.

    If I didn’t find their tier 1 & 2 units boring, I would probably play them a LOT.

    #210598

    Draxynnic
    Member

    Referring to my earlier post: Could you give your reasons?

    Not to challenge your opinion – I think it would be useful for the purpose of discussion to see what the reasons people have for picking other races in order to identify their strengths instead of all the focus being on the race that “everyone knows” is the strongest.

    #210602

    Gloweye
    Member

    I see that I’m the only rebel that voted humans as the strongest race.

    We all got our own opinion. I don’t think Humans are weak by any measure, and the +10 Production is a *very* solid bonus that literally every class can make good use of.

    #210604

    llfoso
    Member

    IIRC they didn’t get any nerfs. Why do you feel bad?

    While chargers with lesser flying and the regrowth is cool, I feel like overall they don’t have a strong theme. They certainly have the most boring t3 unless you play rogue with backstab, and their support buff used to be unique and interesting but the white witches kind of stole their thunder.

    #210608

    Ericridge
    Member

    Sure Draxynnic.

    -Speedy Maritime travel.
    -Very useful Priest support that does spirit damage + has a heal and gains daze upon elite.
    -Civic Guard has throw net with racial governance.
    -Elite Longswordmen can throw a wrench into enemies’ plans via guard break.

    -Humans is one of races that can grow quite fast if they get a acceptable start, if you build the hospital line, and not produce a settler, you’re looking at a metropolis by turn 13-20 despite starting with a settler which makes them a dangerous force to be reckoned with in long games because there will be a expansion phase and all those new outposts will become metropolises quickly very quickly if you take the risk of building hospitals in all of them and gain an economic force that is undeniable if you can defend them.

    -Dual Channel damage of physical/spirit archers if they reach elite, and three if they gain shock damage from uh that mind control immunity node upgrade.

    -All of their units is armored except for civic guard/ human priest.

    -Synergy exists between elite Human priest/longswordmen. Priests daze enemy targets then longswordmen go in and break their defensive stances up to kill them faster with no worry about repercussions.

    -Their racial cavalry evolves into knights which can suddenly turn a recently weak force into a formidable one due to presence of a tier 3 unit even at recruit rank out of no where.

    -Possible gambit, racial governance + city upgrades = expert rank cavalry that can quickly become elite and gain you alot of cheap knights with disadvantage of them being at recruit rank.

    -Harbor governance is pretty awesome, +15 gold / 100 population per turn. It actually takes precedence over building the storehouse for me.

    -Human Dreadnought. Cheaper everything! Except for civic guards/priests. And tougher everything except for civic guard/priests!

    -Humans can settle just about anywhere as long as land isn’t outright hostile like blight/volcanic. If you must have a human city in blight/volcanic, make sure to hurry for that hospital for needed morale boost.

    -Level 5 racial governance = one human city producing merchandise is equal to two human cities. This is quite huge. This permits you to have cities dedicated to nonstop unit spam and make humans one of the zerg factions in late game as their numbers grow which is reflected in lore that I have read in age of wonders. They can’t grow as fast as goblins but they have that undeniable serious late game strength that shouldn’t be ignored.

    – A human faction left unchecked in a isolated corner of XL map will have one of the biggest armies as they start to stare out for new conquests and new lands to expand to.

    -Human race has a affinity for theocrat, warlord, dreadnoughts. They’re just decent in others. And then Human Governance can help mitigate the necromancer’s economy weakness alot if they survive that long enough. Out of all races for a necromancer, a human necromancer is the one most likely to field the biggest army because of the harbor/tier 5 governance.

    -In early/mid game they’re alright, fun to play and then becomes serious deadly serious in late game. And this isn’t saying how much human governance links very well with my playstyle. Tons and tons of armies everywhere.

    I think this is about it for now.

    #210615

    quo
    Member

    One thing I like a lot about Humans is that since the game has a guaranteed start with a Calvary unit, you always have at least 1, sometimes 2, and occasionally three units that can you evolve to T3s. (I tend to average two.)

    In my SP games these units usually last from the beginning of the game to the end, remaining in the stack of either my leader or the first Theocrat hero I recruit (who I train up for Divine Justicars at lvl 11). By that time, the Knights are Gold Medal, meaning they have Strong Will, and with Divine Justicars, Resurgence.

    #210616

    I think humans are very solid race, usually I don’t like humans in strategy/rpg games (because why the hell would I play with a human if I can be a dwarf/orc???) but in AoW III they are cool, due to evolving calvary focus mostly (which is recent), but also all around solid units. I fell that humans is a race that benefits a LOT from manual combat, whenever I play humans I give all the xp to my starting cavs, so I have 1-4 knight very quickly on early game.

    #210620

    Ericridge
    Member

    Edit button disappeared.

    To help understand what I’m talking about.

    This is a couple of screenshots from golden realm.

    See this dwarf city defended by mostly tier 4s?

    I’m attacking it with 3 Armies.

    Now in Eternal Lords, I can hope to field 6 armies to attack this city with if this battle took place in eternal lords instead of golden realms.

    A human warlord with 75% discount probably can field 12 armies in that same place with needed upgrades in place and if global assault is up? Oh boy.

    While other races might have their super racial units, humans can make it up for in numbers even when they lack fancy tricks and ubermenschen racial units like elves do.

    Elves can kill and kill humans again and again but in the end they’re greatly outnumbered XD

    It should be noted this is only possible in late game so MP folks can relax. Please don’t crap your pants out of fear and start screaming nerf.

    #210639

    IIRC they didn’t get any nerfs. Why do you feel bad?

    While chargers with lesser flying and the regrowth is cool, I feel like overall they don’t have a strong theme. They certainly have the most boring t3 unless you play rogue with backstab, and their support buff used to be unique and interesting but the white witches kind of stole their thunder.

    I quite like blunderbussing Drac Dread Fliers!

    Still, I get what you mean – you just don’t like the theme? I don’t much either btw.

    #210690

    mister-00z
    Member

    human warlord
    knights+RG 5/4/3/2+warlords upgrades – good in all respects t3 units
    warlord units with RG4/5 and human +10 prd. – cool (and best horse archers)
    also solid standart units with awesome RG1 upgrade
    i also like all humans classes except sorcerer.
    also think that almost every race/class combo is solid and fun in some way (necro halfling for best luck 😀 )

    #210718

    Fenraellis
    Member

    knights+RG 5/4/3/2+warlords upgrades – good in all respects t3 units

    RG2 actually only benefits the T2 unit specifically named “Cavalry”, rather than “Cavalry” type units in general. The downside and potential confusion that can arise from Humans having several units with names that match unit type titles.

    #210726

    NINJEW
    Member

    Pretty sure he means building the t2 unit, but having it at t3 strength (and, of course, it evolves into a t3 proper)

    #210741

    NINJEW
    Member

    See this dwarf city defended by mostly tier 4s?

    I’m attacking it with 3 Armies.

    These images are terrifying by the way

    Is this how the SP crowd normally plays

    To each their own I suppose

    #210755

    Draxynnic
    Member

    Thanks, Ericridge! A lot of that was things I was thinking, but there’s also a lot there that I hadn’t thought of, which is why I’m asking people to explain their choices rather than figuring it out for myself.

    @ninjew: Look at the turn counter. I don’t think I’ve had a game go over the 100 turn mark, myself. That is quite terrifying, though. I’m betting there were a lot of casualties taking out that city…

    While chargers with lesser flying and the regrowth is cool, I feel like overall they don’t have a strong theme. They certainly have the most boring t3 unless you play rogue with backstab, and their support buff used to be unique and interesting but the white witches kind of stole their thunder.

    While I’m not about to make an argument for draconians being the strongest (somebody voted for them, so I’m hoping they’ll make the argument to see if they catch something I missed), here are my thoughts:

    Themewise, draconians have the following characteristics:
    1) Fire. (Personally, I think this is at the risk of being pushed too strong.)
    2) Bouncing back quickly from injuries (fast healing, regrowth…)
    3) “We don’t care about your stinking walls!”
    4) Focus on infantry and magic.

    The first two are fairly straightforward, so I’ll concentrate on the others.

    For the third… most of the draconian lineup has something that allows them to operate at reduced or even no impediment to walls. Fire Bomb is unaffected by walls, they have more access to flying than anyone else, and most of their melee ground units that don’t fly have Improved Wall Climbing at least. Overall, since the pounce nerf, I think draconians are probably the strongest race for assaulting the walls of a city, and for most classes, Chargers probably do make for a better wall-bypasser than unicorn riders.

    Flyers, incidentally, epitomise this. Projectile Resistance reduces their damage on the way in, they can be buffed by Dragon Ancestry to do more damage (yes, Frozen Flames steals the thunder of that somewhat, but draconians give you Ancestry and flying assault troops in the same lineup, while frostlings have to rely on raiders and mammoths to break into cities), Overwhelm makes fighting enemy pikemen a bit less painful, and if they’ve hit gold, Killing Momentum can make them even more of a terror to archers, and you have less of a requirement to have a dungeon mystic site to achieve that.

    At first glance, they probably are the most boring of the flyers. They certainly are when you’re playing a class such as Warlord or Dreadnought that provides extra bonuses to cavalry (Weapon Kit can compensate for dreadnoughts, but generally, I’d prefer to have Side Arms). On the other hand, though, there’s rogue backstab, and the necromancer lifestealing upgrade doesn’t work for cavalry, so the flyer is the only racial flyer that can benefit from that. For the remaining classes that are neutral with respect to infantry or cavalry, flyers are behind gryphons at first glance, but gryphons don’t benefit from racial governance upgrades, while Flyers can get some nice boosts out of the high-end upgrades. Eagles can too, but they pay a bit for their increased speed and Wing Beat.

    Magic-wise, a lot of draconian supports have something that makes them more versatile than others – Apprentices and Exalted being the most infamous. They also have a mid-level economic upgrade that grants an extra 10 casting points to your leader and to all draconian heroes – that’s worth at least 5 hero points to each of your draconian heroes, and more casting points on your leader is always worthwhile.

    There are other draconian advantages I’m not mentioning, but like I said, I’m waiting to see if one of the people who voted draconians might have more stuff that I’ve missed. (Personally, I like them, and I think they’re up there… but I’m not sure I’d say they’re the most powerful. On the other hand, though, I don’t think Eternal Lords has left them significantly weaker in comparison to other races from pre-EL when they were seen as being in the top three: the main thing is the aforementioned Frozen Flames being a version of Dragon Ancestry that works on anything.)

    #210759

    Well Drac Dread should be terrifying then, as Chargers plus Cannons will be good.

    I find Draconians tend to lack defence, so throw in Golems:).

    Plus Fliers with blunderbuss…that’s always nice. Swoop in, shoot, stab.

    #210774

    mister-00z
    Member

    Pretty sure he means building the t2 unit, but having it at t3 strength (and, of course, it evolves into a t3 proper)

    that and warlord also boost runk up speed for them(especially with creation adept)

    #210779

    llfoso
    Member

    There are other draconian advantages I’m not mentioning, but like I said, I’m waiting to see if one of the people who voted draconians might have more stuff that I’ve missed. (Personally, I like them, and I think they’re up there… but I’m not sure I’d say they’re the most powerful. On the other hand, though, I don’t think Eternal Lords has left them significantly weaker in comparison to other races from pre-EL when they were seen as being in the top three: the main thing is the aforementioned Frozen Flames being a version of Dragon Ancestry that works on anything.)

    This is all true. You forgot the raptors, who are awesome with inflict scorching heat and inflict immolation at gold.

    I understand their advantages. I just feel a bit bored playing them right now. Their deity military upgrade is also really bland.

    I think though if I could change one thing, anything, about them it would be to make dragon ancestry cooler somehow. Perhaps lowering the damage and adding inflict immolation. Or bringing back fire strike applying to spells – that was way cool.

    As to the flyer, that upgrade is competing with a whopper. +1 rank to every unit, +2 vision range for cities, and 100 gold cheaper Peaks? Man. I wouldn’t take the other unless I had a really particular strategy in mind. But IMHO that upgrade (as well as the tigran one that grants +200 happiness and +1 rank to everyone) should be nerfed to only give that bonus rank to a particular unit or class of units.

    I suppose the flyer is the ideal unit to use with the guerrilla ability too, but I don’t really know how you would incorporate that upgrade to a strategy.

    #210780

    Draxynnic
    Member

    One thing I’d like to see is for Dragon Ancestry to work on creatures with the dragon type. Could be interesting to also have a ‘Dragon Descended’ type to cover cockatrices and anything with similar lore.

    #210888

    Ericridge
    Member

    You’re welcome Draxynnic and nah, I didn’t lose a single unit taking that city from Drugal.

    Drugal panicked and withdrew half of the defenders from that city and fled.

    Then I looked at the now reduced defenders and ordered the hellhounds from my armies to attack that now weakened city. Once I engaged them in battle, I started spamming destabilized manacores. Everything in the defender’s side blew up including juggernauts except for flame tanks. For those my hellhounds charged towards the walls once all other defenders is dead.

    Then those hellhounds attacked the flame tanks and blew them up easily that was in golden realms when flame tanks was utterly helpless before they gained the much needed ram attack.

    Then I marched in with all other soldiers and captured the city without losing a single unit.

    And juggernaut spam isn’t “that” bad, all you need is tireless+ high physical defense units that can also do good melee damage. For me, that was old tier 3 golems. I keep my golems ready in defend, and once when those juggernauts fire their mortar barrage, I charge forth and tie them up in melee. Most ideal when there is other friendly juggernauts inside broadside firing range. If the AI feel like it will lose too much hp by forcibly disengaging from Golems, it will choose to ram instead of broadside/mortar. And from there you can proceed to melee attack carefully while keeping other juggernauts tied up via defend spamming golems.

    Old golems was capable of incredible things. Like handling elite manticore spam.

    Anyways if you want more, feel free to read this thread. XD
    http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/first-megabattle/

    tinypic will eventually delete the pictures in that thread. so it’s only good for like a year or so. 😛

    #210958

    I’m surprised Warlord and Rogue are so well liked.

    #211350

    Firehold
    Member

    Theocrat/Draconian
    Extremely fast early game healing/clearing
    Regenerating combat flying pikemen to setup easy flanks
    Evangelists that can crusader hide and do ranged damage when convert is used
    Good choice of governance upgrades
    Resistant to a common damage type (fire)
    Good damage versus common site defenders (undead, wisps, phantasms)
    Resistant to some dreadnought damage types

    #211361

    vota dc
    Member

    Union Guard have the same total attack as the tier 1 pikemen average, it’s just a dual-channel attack, which can be a double-edged sword (or spear) at times.

    They get also -2 hp than regular pikes.
    But rarely that kind of dual-channel is a double edged sword: against most tier 1 is like +2 attack than physical pikemen, against high resistance or nearly immune there is the rule of minimum damage so they always deal 1 or 2 shock damage. Also they work in tandem with sisters and most of the few nemesis are melee nemesis….for example wisps are immune to shock but you don’t want to use melee to eliminate them anyway.

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