Your opinions about implementation of tier 4 racial units

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Your opinions about implementation of tier 4 racial units

This topic contains 111 replies, has 32 voices, and was last updated by  Epaminondas 6 years, 10 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 1 through 30 (of 112 total)
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  • #146782

    GeilerRitter
    Member

    Should it be or not ? For me it should be , because it is really adding a lot of spices to the game , making the races unique . This is one of the most disappointing side of the game for me that races do not have t4 units . I like class system but it is a little boring to have same units with all races.

    #146806

    Wintermoore
    Member

    IMHO I like the current system of only the classes and dwellings having the tier 4 units (less the rogue). It make the units felt superior and unique. If all the racial is having tier 4 units it will only reduce the worth of all the lower tiers units.

    #146809

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Yes, me too thinks, that there are enough racial units.

    #146826

    Gloweye
    Member

    While pretty hesitant about it back when the game came out, I must say I approve of this current system. T4’s are from your class, which basically makes your early game more dependent on race and your late game on class.

    #146853

    llfoso
    Member

    I would be ok with it if they only became available at the “diety” racial command level.

    #146870

    Or as the option for the diety class military selection to unlock the racial tier four.Though from my knowledge of how fast levels are accumulated, it might be too late.

    #146871

    llfoso
    Member

    If that’s too late then level 4. Doesn’t matter, as long as it’s not just a city upgrade.

    #146882

    terrahero
    Member

    Im a bit torn on this. On one hand it would even further cement the need for high tier units in order to stay competitive in late game. But on the other hand a greater diversity in unit choices would add more flavor to the late game as right now the tier4 choices are fairly limited, especially if you had bad luck with dwellings.

    #146934

    MartyD81
    Member

    I personally like the system the way it stands now, or rather, after major updates. The balance between “racial” and “class” will never be such as one would prefer, but I believe the current system suits most of us more or less. Racial units are already useful and varied, and if you care about them enough, you will find them equally useful even end-game. Further major changes to racial or class units would upset the existing delicate balance in an undesirable way IMO. So this implies that I completely agree with Wintermoore’s claim that only classes and dwellings should have tier 4 units. It is right the potential to creatively and tactically combine racial and class units that makes the game all the more interesting. Now give me the Frostlings already!

    #146956

    Jaduggar
    Member

    Oh my god, this is at least, like…. the tenth time I have seen a thread about this, in the last month alone, and every time it is the same debate. T4 racial units are a bad idea. You think it is repetitive now, to see the same t4 every time you play a class, but if you add t4 racial units… those units will be summoned every single game, regardless of the classes being played, because all (or at least most) of the races tend to show up on every map. It will be far more repetitive, because they will dominate the field, and class t4 will take a back seat to the same 8 racial t4 being played every game.

    I would also like to see some more endgame variety, myself, but this is not the way to do it… and the community has been overwhelmingly against the idea ever since the first time it was requested >.>

    #146975

    AZJaguar
    Member

    You think it is repetitive now, to see the same t4 every time you play a class, but if you add t4 racial units… those units will be summoned every single game, regardless of the classes being played, because all (or at least most) of the races tend to show up on every map. It will be far more repetitive, because they will dominate the field, and class t4 will take a back seat to the same 8 racial t4 being played every game.

    I would also like to see some more endgame variety, myself, but this is not the way to do it…

    I agree on this wholeheartedly. My younger brother is one of those that just sits back and focuses on the high end units before he does anything else. If races had their own tier 4 then mid game all you would see are the tier 4 units running around.

    However I too would like to see the tier 4s added but not as a regular upgrade to your city from turn one. Cause then everyone would just make their games starting off with metropolises. I suggest that 1. Once you hit Deity on that race then you can build the tier 4 unit building. 2. Have like an ancient racial ruin that if explored and in the domain of the city can produce the tier 4 building like with the Feathered Serpents.

    #146983

    Jaduggar
    Member

    2. Have like an ancient racial ruin that if explored and in the domain of the city can produce the tier 4 building like with the Feathered Serpents.

    This… actually could have potential, and it would probably be the only way I could tolerate a racial t4 unit. There could be a building (a Mythical exploration site, to ensure that it is a late game feature) which, if within a cities domain, allowed that city, and only that city to produce a t4 racial unit.

    This way, you could add racial t4s, but only one or two cities on a medium sized map would have access to it. The rarity of the exploration site would ensure that only a couple of the available races actually fielded its racial t4 each game, and the randomness of having to come across one means that you couldnt bend your strategy to it.

    It would also be an exploration site of such strategic value, as to be something worth fighting over. I could get behind this. But the notion of simply giving each race a t4 of their own, by default, would be game wrecking.

    #147064

    I echo Jaduggar feelings.

    No T4 racial units. Ever.

    #147157

    happyworld
    Member

    I really hope they include t4 racial units they will add more variety, more choice, more replay ability and more fun. Maybe have it as an option so the people that don’t want them can play without, until they want to give them try.

    So in brief 11 thumbs up for t4 racial units.

    #147158

    happyworld
    Member

    I really hope they include t4 racial units they will add more variety, more choice, more replay ability and more fun. Maybe have it as an option so the people that don’t want them can play without, until they want to give them a try.

    So in brief 11 thumbs up for t4 racial units.

    #147163

    Ravenholme
    Member

    Oh my god, this is at least, like…. the tenth time I have seen a thread about this, in the last month alone, and every time it is the same debate. T4 racial units are a bad idea. You think it is repetitive now, to see the same t4 every time you play a class, but if you add t4 racial units… those units will be summoned every single game, regardless of the classes being played, because all (or at least most) of the races tend to show up on every map. It will be far more repetitive, because they will dominate the field, and class t4 will take a back seat to the same 8 racial t4 being played every game.

    I would also like to see some more endgame variety, myself, but this is not the way to do it… and the community has been overwhelmingly against the idea ever since the first time it was requested >.>

    Nicely put Jaddugar, I agree completely.

    What I would like is to see a second racial T3 OR just a new unit added for the various races at differing tiers. Mostly because I really, really want Halfling Sheriffs back 😛

    #147215

    llfoso
    Member

    Jaduggar, you of course have a rock-solid argument. However I we haven’t had this discussion since the “new race upgrade system” dev journal came out. I think it’s worth discussing t4s as high-level race command unlocks. Given what we know about how slowly those come out I think allowing a t4 racial unit at the level 4 (that level was mysteriously skipped in the preview btw) the obvious problems that t4 racial units used to present seem to no longer be a problem. Because of what we know about how slow these are unlocked, the racial t4s could come out much later than class t4s amd it’s unlikely you would ever be able to build more than one kind unless in ridiculously long games.

    I will also point out that in this image the level 4 empire upgrade has a monster’s face…

    If my hunch is right, that t4 military upgrade must be freaking awesome if it wants to compete with a racial t4.

    #147218

    brxbrx
    Member

    What kind of delusional fanboy thinks there are “enough” race units? Each race is completely subsumed by the classes.
    Anyways, on my end, I would like to see t4 racial units, but only if t3 and t4 units get capped (something like 1 t3 per two cities and 1 t4 per three cities).
    As it is, playing even a medium map is ridiculous. It just becomes a battle of the t4s way too quickly. Why do other units even exist?

    T3 and T4 units should be special. They should be the crux of your army, not the fodder.

    #147221

    Jaduggar
    Member

    What I would like is to see a second racial T3 OR just a new unit added for the various races at differing tiers. Mostly because I really, really want Halfling Sheriffs back

    Another t3 is something I would be happy to see… but probably not more than just one more.

    As it is, playing even a medium map is ridiculous. It just becomes a battle of the t4s way too quickly. Why do other units even exist?
    T3 and T4 units should be special. They should be the crux of your army, not the fodder.

    I agree with this part, at least… but adding in more t4 is not going to reduce t4 spam. That is going to take another, more creative, solution to fix. If you want variety to expand, it would be a much better idea to add to the usefulness of all of those t1 and t2 (that get ignored in late game) rather than try to out populate them with t4. More t4 will only render t1 and t2 more useless.

    What kind of delusional fanboy thinks there are “enough” race units? Each race is completely subsumed by the classes.

    Never said that we had enough. I want more, also, but I want more t1, t2, and maybe… one t3. Your class should be the dominant part of your strategy, that is why it takes the front seat. Races are secondary, and they should not be given anything that can out perform your class.

    #147222

    brxbrx
    Member

    There’s no sense having more t1 and t2 units if building them isn’t feasible

    #147244

    iCRIHFIELD
    Member

    If, racial T4’s were to be implemented I would like to see them as insanely powerful or just unique units. However, as extreme late game units, with cap put on the maximum number capable of being produced(maybe just one), and only the racial T4 able to be produced if it matches the race of the leader as to prevent someone producing every racial tier 4 in large maps with lots of races.

    I’m completely happy without racial T4’s, but yeah I would love to see some new racial units at the same time.

    #147249

    brxbrx
    Member

    It doesn’t matter… The devs won’t listen. They’ll just keep doing whatever and this thread will soon be buried

    #147251

    Unknown250
    Member

    I’m against racial T4s, and this is a big deal for me because, like many others, I was initially hugely disappointed with the decision to not have racial T4s, as it seemed to be really limiting the diversity. However, as I played the game I discovered that assigning T4s to class rather than race actually makes the game more diverse – in previous games the endgame almost always played the same because there were some T4s that were head and shoulders above the rest, and your objective was to get cities of those races and build them up to T4. Late game stacks were usually composed of the same units no matter what race you started as.

    The one thing I would like to see, however, is a second racial T3. Literally every single racial T3 is either Infantry or Cavalry. There’s plenty of room to add in a second T3 per race, taking up an Archer, Irregular, Pikeman, or Support slot, and I think that would make the game a lot more interesting, and provide more intriguing choices between the races.

    #147254

    brxbrx
    Member

    How you think also having racial t4s would reduce diversity is beyond me.

    You could have both racial AND class t4s.
    The only difference would be that instead of spamming Eldritch Horrors and Juggernaughts, you’d see more of a split in stacks.

    #147291

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    brxbrx, I notice that you seem to be very new and have very little understanding of the game. I don’t know what you played and how, probably some campaign of scenarios, but I suggest you play a couple of months with the RMG, try to steer things with settings into the direction you want and then come back.

    For example, you cannot seriously complain in one thread about “T4 spamming” and then start crying for even more T4s in another. What sense does it make to limit T4s on one hand to, say, 1 per stack or 2 per town, and on the other to add a racial T4 that would cost something like 500 production points to actually build the prerequisite and another 300 to build a creature. If you can “waste” that amount of money for 1 unit, the game should be finished already.

    #147300

    Gloweye
    Member

    Guys, that “Monster Face” is the the list of non-military upgrades. The military are on the left, economy on the right.

    Military 2: Looks like a happy unit. High Morale for Dracs?

    Military 3: Gold and an arrow down. Cheaper dracs?

    Military 4: Boot. More Movement for Dracs?

    Miliraty 5: Fire and an arrow up. But we already know this is fire damage.
    (oops, went a bit off-topic. srry bout that.)

    #147369

    brxbrx
    Member

    brxbrx, I notice that you seem to be very new and have very little understanding of the game. I don’t know what you played and how, probably some campaign of scenarios, but I suggest you play a couple of months with the RMG, try to steer things with settings into the direction you want and then come back.

    For example, you cannot seriously complain in one thread about “T4 spamming” and then start crying for even more T4s in another. What sense does it make to limit T4s on one hand to, say, 1 per stack or 2 per town, and on the other to add a racial T4 that would cost something like 500 production points to actually build the prerequisite and another 300 to build a creature. If you can “waste” that amount of money for 1 unit, the game should be finished already.

    I am certainly not new. I have 62 hours logged in AoW:3 and I play almost exclusively random maps.
    I’ve also extensively played Shadow Magic (where t4s were similarly problematic).

    Wanting more unit variety is not contradictory to wanting to limit the use of t4s in the game. Having building a t4 unit be an actual choice, having t4 units actually matter, that is what I want.
    I don’t play on high difficulties, and the AI still spams t4s. I spam t4s. They’re too easy to attain. It’s ridiculous. They should be limited.
    1 t4 per 3 cities.
    1 per dwelling.
    Make t4s special. Make them count. Let’s see t1s and t2s become more important.
    That would make the game far more interesting, from thematic, tactical, and strategic standpoints.

    #147396

    Jaduggar
    Member

    I am certainly not new. I have 62 hours logged in AoW:3 and I play almost exclusively random maps.
    I’ve also extensively played Shadow Magic (where t4s were similarly problematic).

    XD

    I have almost 500 hours on AOW3, and more on AOW1… and that makes me a “light” player, by the standards of this community. Many of these others here are pushing a thousand by now. Im not trying to turn this into a dick-measuring contest, or anything, but if you have less than 200 hours, you are still something of a freshman here…

    Look, the point (which you seem to be missing) is twofold:

    ONE: adding racial t4s WILL MAKE THE GAME EXTREMELY REPETITIVE. It will do so because you will wind up seeing them every… single… game. This has been explained at least four times in this thread, but Ill try it once more, in a bit more detail, and then I am officially done with this thread, and this topic.

    Right now, that elder thing you are bothered with, is only going to be spammed by one class. The Sorceror. The theocrat is going to spam shrines, and the druid is going to spam storm giants. If you play against each one on three different maps, then each game you are confronting a different endgame. It is still spam, but you arent seeing the shrine for three games in a row… that would drive anyone insane.

    Now, if you add racial t4s… then in that first game you will see all 8 of those racial t4s. In the second game you will see the same eight. In the third game… the same eight yet another time. Every. Single. Game. The end game will become exactly the same each time you play it, because they will always be the same t4s over and over again, with only minor changes.

    This is because, although you will face different enemy classes each time you play… the same eight races will be on most every map you play, with very few exceptions. THAT is how it reduces diversity. The actual quantity of t4s will go up, but they will be the same ones over and over again.

    AND TWO: The devs are actually pretty good about listening to the community and responding to their needs and requests. In fact, I have never seen another studio do it this well, with the possible exception of the guys who made Nuclear Throne. The community, here, has done a lot to shape the evolution of this game, and they continue to do so.

    The reason you feel so brushed off, is because this topic has been brought up again and again, since the day this game launched. Its a dead horse. It was one of the first topics posted on the forums, and it has continued to be posted at least once every other week since that day. It is nearly always some new player, who hasnt completely gotten the hang of the game yet, and it has always been solidly rejected by the rest of the community.

    It is ignored because it was settled a long time ago. There arent going to be racial t4s, the devs already said they had no interest in this, way back before Golden Realms. If you had bothered to look through the forums before making your post, you would have seen at least two more of these threads only a page or two deep.

    #147401

    UltraDD
    Member

    I don’t think that will be whats happening. Everyone will be spamming the strongest T4 available to them. This will also buff classes with a summoned T4 and they’ll now be the strongest late game classes as well.. Yea that seems very dangerous to balance.

    Like its been said in a million thread before. People want late game to still involve at least T2 units beside T4 and 3. The draconicon +3 fire damage upgrade seems to go that way. Even a T1 melee unit will get +9 DAMAGE if it manages to do 3 attacks. they’ll be able to keep up in damage with someone who does nothing but spam T4\3.

    #147519

    Unknown250
    Member

    +1 to everything Jaduggar said. I’ve never known a company better than Triumph at listening to its community (remember Swolte and the BTOOIC (or whatever) guild?). Hell, Shadow Magic was basically a fulfillment of the community’s wishlist, adding back unit descriptions, some old favourite missing units, a new level, as well as tossing in all sorts of new things that the community had asked for.

    Racial T4s are like unit’s combat ability weakening as they take damage: If Triumph were going to do it, they’d have done it already, and the reasons why it hasn’t been done have been discussed to death and are readily available to anyone willing to use the search function.

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