Forum Replies Created
Shield of light should also replace static shield as the gold ability.
I’m surprised it’s haven’t done yet 🙂
I’m all for slightly delay the T4 generation on the lower difficulty settings (and maybe reverse on the high difficulty ones)
That way, you can still have fun with them (especially on XL maps, or any other settings that make game longer), but you haven’t fight them too early, when you’re (most likely) still not ready for themMay 25, 2015 at 16:50 in reply to: What's the consensus on the Dreadnought T4? Does it need a buff? #204576
– Add Steamroller ability. This is a short range ability that moves the Juggernaut to the target square while doing Ram damage on every unit between. May need one or more turns cooldown.
Maybe Charge + Devastating Charge will be better?
Forgot to mention, it’s on squire (around turn 80 though)
What class are you playing with? Since HE is weak against the blight, you’ll need either rogue/AD heroes or be necro (80% blight protection, immunity goes down coz of weakness) or bring machines (immune to blight anyway) or be theocrat (so can wreck that filth with minimal loses)
But I agree, watching Archon Titan/Bone Dragon around turn 50 is really soon (at least on squire)
Well, I should say that the roaming undead is really nightmare (call me a psycho, but I like it)
The only class that hasn’t much problem with them is theocrat (vote for warlord as second), still the matter of race comes (HE even as theocrat can be doomed to oblivion by this)
Yesterday I’ve played as Frostling Theocrat (two racial supports sounds wonderful)…this gone ugly fast xD
Have hard time deciding what to pick, but most of my recent games went “expander + shadowborn/keeper mastery” AND that’s the reason to worry about
While elemental masteries have their uses, I feel that shadowborn/keeper (also grey guard, but at least for me it’s much harder to keep the alingnment neutral) is superior to old ones
What, they haven’t some sort of resistance to manipulation already? I can’t recall any other T4 so…
Just started the turn. Can’t predict when it happens, but oviously it was unlucky turn 🙂
Shadowborn is amazing! New favourite! 🙂
(I’m bad with the links)
Yes, it is.
Third, sometimes (can’t say I’m always seeing this problem) I can’t have a tooltip on buildings/units when browsing the city production. Last time I saw it, it was with…Necromancers again.
That’s not the Necros only and not bulding/units ones, the tooltips are also randomly not shows with research or spells for anyone.
I loved Human Necromancer (also with Keeper of the Peace mastery, just for lulz), mainly because…y’know knighty stuff 😀
Frostling Warlord is a beast! Ice Queen charger anyone? Also DAT MAMMOTHS!
Tigran Rogue is another “Wow, that Rocks!” matter. Sphinks backstabber and that Succubus…really nice one. I also guess they can (ranging from “it’s nice” to “it’s mandatory) use “any alignment mastery” to make themselves even stronger
For now, I’m not into theorycrafting, just mention from my recent experince
Thanks for the quick reply 🙂
I’m also against racial t4
I’m for more unique class-race dependency – instead of just “one size fits all”, something like “High Elf Berserk = Blade Dancer”, I hope you get an idea 😀
Though it’s just my dreaming 😀
I think most of the reasonable arguments pro and con in all the varieties of the change have been aired
Or just someone’s out of constructive argumentation for now 😀
I would joke about “TL;DR” but that would be a lie. This thread does seem to spawn a lot of lengthy posts <3.
That thread is 3 pages long as some 6 pages could be (if you take the number of letters, ofc) 😀
What say the devs?
Especially when so many spears were broken
Count me in.
+1 Mystical City Upgrades in dwellings.
+1 alternate and additional upgrades and buildings.
Why? More options and content = more longevity, new discoveries and ways to play the game
My thoughts exactly
And so what if HE/Dread becomes an interesting choice? It won’t be the default race for Dread, and it won’t dominate the other races. There are so many other things to consider than whether the racial t3 is Armored or not. Other races have some really nice things going for them that people are already using to play good Dread with.
Overall, either way, I don’t think it will make a huge difference. Elf Dreadnought is already quite an attractive proposal, more so than Hafling imho, and you already get a flying, potentially shooting, rather good T3 unit anyway, so an extra defence etc won’t make them any more interesting imho, overall.
It’ll only make the life of independents harder 😀
Much as some would say a Knight uses a polearm, and others would say the way he uses his polearm in a different way then a Pikeman unit. And this martial difference determines how the polearm-effect works against cavalry/flying units, and not merely the presence of one.
Well, the Knight uses something lake lance (the leading weapon in cavalry charges, and was unsuited for throwing or for repeated thrusting, unlike similar weapons of the spear/javelin/pike family typically used by infantry (c) Wikipedia), so their way is truly different from pikeman 😀
Otherwise we are going down a very slippery slope, with the Knight/Boar Rider just being the beginning.
What’s wrong with this? The more variety the better.
Attack a city and anyone would prefer flyers over the human knight, because you can get over the walls so easy.
Well, it’s double-edged sword actually. You can easily fly over the walls into the slaughterhouse suicide. Too much factors to count. However, with defensive buldings you should think fast, so, either way you should breach the walls fast, and what will be there – that’s another story.
Also, I don’t think it’s to much to demand the unit models appear like the ability list would suggest.
Yep. My thoughts exactly.
As for the Gryphon Rider itself, I think it should be added. If Elf Dread really proves to strong because of this, the +1 def can always be taken off again, making it into a almost pure weakness.
tl;dr It’s a minor and fun change.
It’s absolutely tl;dr 😀
nd I think we should be clear on if we are discussing giving the Gryphon Riders:
1. Armored and +1 Defense
I’m arguing for the 2nd option.
Me too for 2nd.
Option 1A/2A: Armored (+1 Def) and -3 Move -> 27 Move.
One less movement tile on world map and in combat, but enough that an action restore spell brings them from their remaining 2 Move after fully moving, +13, to 15 Move, enough for three more flying movement tiles. Further differentiating them from Flyers and Eagle Riders.
Not bad idea. And the wolves are sated and the sheep intact.
Honestly, if I have any concern, of which there isn’t much, it would be the Enchanted Armory synergy more than any of the class synergies that might exist for it.
I’ll still be looking for Dwarves, they’re truly masters of Enchanted Armory synergy.
And that’s why polearms grant a bonus against cavalry. To be honest, though, even with a polearm, going for the rider probably still involves getting uncomfortably close when you can just poke your long pointy stick into the gryphon, with less concern about it glancing off armour.
If it would be so easy. There are still factors.
Draconians need to get to flyers before they can cross the wall – they can’t phase across the wall with tier 2 cavalry like elves can.
Sorry for misunderstanding. I meant that I would rather siege the Draconians in the fashion you pointed than Goblins.
Knights only have the advantage versus theocrat if you get them to gold first. Which might apply if you’re a lategame warlord, but otherwise, you can’t exactly rely on them all having Strong Will. Otherwise, the gryphon rider’s additional resistance gives it the advantage against any nonphysical channel that isn’t blight. (Incidentally, Watchers only have three melee channels. If you’re getting shock, it’s probably because they’re being led by a sorcerer.)
I assumed that they’re leading by sorc, yes. Also, I always compare the units with gold medal (since it’s easy to reach), and that’s why I find that knights is already better against watchers (against Eldritch Horror I would like to put something else than both gryphons and knights if possible), since they just ignores spirit.
Unless I’ve missed something, there’s no direct synergy between Martial Arts and Armoured, except that armoured units typically have a higher defense to begin with.
That’s what am I talking abhout.
They do, as Unicorns have 40% Blight Weakness.
Woops, don’t know why I forgot that, my apologies.
You know, I’d actually rather see an armored big beetle than anything else, since 1). beetles have that tough shell, which is armor like, and 2). why not give goblin dreadnought something other than musketeer spam.
Well, I don’t think it should be armored in the same fashion, but you have a point. Should we start a discussion? 😀
Also, if we mention it here, let’s say the beetles should have not a usual “armored” trait but, let call it, “hard chitin”, works the same way, just not susceptible for armor piercing (I can’t find a reason why it should be pierced the same way the armor does), and also can’t be affected by -10% (still can be affected by dreadnought armor buffs, dunno what dreads do in their laboratories) .
You need to take the rest of the race into consideration.
Couldn’t say better myself.
even for dreadnought if an armored gryphon rider meant that you get a discount on the two best cavalry in the game?
They can be superior in terms of mobility, still they aren’t a panacea.
In case there’s anyone who hasn’t already seen it, this thread might be of interest: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/gryphon-riders/
A proposal for Gryphon Riders to be given the armoured trait. Chryso and I disagree, for reasons that we’ve discussed in the thread.
I’m not sure there’s anyone who hasn’t seen it already, but thanks for the link (and for the opposition also :D)
I was surprised to see this thread since I’ve always assumed Gryphon Riders to be Armored
That’s exactly why I’ve created the thread, I’ve always thought they’re armored, while they’re not 😀
For example, Dwarf Boar Riders could easily have the Polearm trait from looking at their art.
Should we start a topic for that? 😀
We can also look elsewhere in the game to see how it’s handled there. The High Elf Unicorn Rider is Armored, but the Unicorns don’t have any visible armor on them. Compared to the Fey Unicorn the riders give one extra Defense, 3 HP, change 4 Spirit damage to Physical, while losing Cure Disease, Strong Will, and gains 20% Blight Weakness. Seems there riders are doing something, but they’re not completely beneficial.
Sorry, for the correction, but it really could be read as they losed the weakness 🙂
Yep, though Draxynnic had a point with the animal gryphon being t2 and rider being t3, while unicorns (and their riders) being t2. Still, “Seems there riders are doing something, but they’re not completely beneficial.”
And they lose Dedicated to Good, which is almost purely an advantage.
The same could be applied to gryphons
Considering the existence of Heroes and other special individuals, the AoW world of magic and artifacts, and that probably only the most elite of the High Elfs become Gryphon Riders, I don’t find it unreasonable that the riders and their armor could be quite relevant in a fight.
Well said. Couldn’t say better myself.
As for the other races I cannot really speak much of, they all have some things that makes them the best at something.
Even though Elves are actually the best of the not Dragon things there, we don’t need that to be totally reflected in the game mechanics.
I’ll not suggest that for sure.
That said, I’m not entirely sure how much of a difference it will make giving Gryphon riders armoured stats wise, but I do think the cost reduction from Elf Dreadnought will be an issue for sure..
Well, thank the Gods, Goblin Big Beetle is not armored, or it’ll an issue for sure.
Again, you’re exaggerating the effect of blight vulnerability. Unicorn riders and gryphon riders bring strategic and tactical mobility that dreadnoughts don’t normally have, allowing them to have a response to mobility-based tactics from other classes, which the human dreadnought would be less equipped to fight.
It’s not the vulnerability, ot at least not only that. While mobility is always good, I wouldn’t like to face theocrat being an Elf with gryphons, but as Human with knights…well it’ll still be painful, but not so. Or sorc, whose Watcher has dual channel on range, and, IIRC, quadruple (phys, shock, blight, spirit), and Eldritch Horror is even worse.
Gryphon riders, in my experience, actually do a better job at that, particularly if you can get your hands on a flying or floating hero, since not only do they grant more scope for tactical maneuvering while fighting creep stacks (in SP, where you’re not expected to autoresolve them) and because their strategic mobility allows them to more quickly move between sites of interest. At most, you might have some particularly hard to crack sites where the slayer abilities make a difference (and the greater flanking abilities of gryphons don’t), but I’ve ran into few sites where luring the enemy to attack a gryphon on guard and then swarming the flanks doesn’t work, and gryphons are better at roaming around the place hitting EVERYTHING.
Then we just have different experience on that case.
It’s five production. Every so often it means you’ll make a breakpoint when you wouldn’t otherwise, but it’s a pretty niche benefit. If there was spillover production or a means of converting production into gold (note: produce merchandise just increases the base gold income by 50%) then this might be a more valuable advantage, but it doesn’t.
Still, I personally find it pretty useful. In combination with city happyness (and expander again, not counting pickups though, it’s even more random factor than terrain) that, in my experience, pretty big deal.
Pretty sure you’re being facetious here, since (and I just checked the Tome of Wonders, so unless that’s incorrect…) there are no warlord abilities that key off being Armoured.
I mean, that Martial Arts bonus, that can be pretty hard with armored units (unless I missed something).
Like I said, it depends on how much someone values flying. I’m getting the impression that you haven’t figured out how to make the most of it and thus value it lower than others might.
Well, I wouldn’t argue on that point, you may have the point there.
These counter humans just as easily.
Well, it counters any mounted/flying (not sure about floating though) if we want to counter further. Still, against Human Knight, they need Armor Piercing, while against the Gryphon Rider they don’t need, and that’s the advantage of knights, as I see it.
Particularly since longbowmen can potentially allow high elves to creep effectively early on with little damage. Doubly so if there are a lot of forests on the map, which elves can pass through without difficulty while humans… can’t.
Well, you’ve a point there. Longbowmen are superior.
And regarding sieging goblins as elves – that’s not something I’d regard as ‘a pain’. Fly or teleport over the walls, make mincemeat out of the Swarm Darters and Blight Doctors (in that order, swarm darters go down easy), mop up the rest. Blight vulnerability means you’ll take a bit more damage than you would against other races. Elves (as a race) are still the kings of sieges.
I’d rather do that trick with, I dunno, draconians? (in that case elven dread can just went on rampage, yeah)
You’re saying that elves are weak because they have blight vulnerability, and proposing a change that would likely result in their top unit gaining more physical defense. Sorry, but you are coming across as saying ‘elves are weak against blight, so they should be buffed against physical’
Well, I said that blight weakness is the factor that prevents the elves just going on the rampage.
Don’t you think it would be much easier to take that sword and swing at the gryphon’s head, neck, or breast? You’re still at risk from the beak and claws that way, but at least you can keep it at blade’s length rather than standing next to it as you try to thrust upwards into a weak spot of the armour of someone riding on top of it. A someone who will be trying to cut you down from above while you’re doing so, what’s more.
Well, I would prefer not to engage a gryphon with something not-polearm.
Where is my Sylthaniellys Fielstymarthynordel? Character limits.
Agreed, there something should be done
Because for most classes, it would be a trivial change (one I still think would be a bad one, but regardless, armoured and +1 net defense is not a major difference)
Let me guess, is it warlord (who can exploit armor at full)? If so, it’ll be bad, but not so bad (I would not suggest a completely balance breaker)
In mythology, gryphons are fierce fighters that don’t give up once they’ve engaged. In most settings with gryphon riders, the gryphons are noted for their fierce loyalty for their rider. Even if you assume that Our Gryphons Are Different here, I think the odds that the gryphon is just going to keep fighting are high enough for it to remain the priority target, since the rider on his own is a trivial threat compared to the gryphon.
Well, there is problem. While I agree that gryphon is fierce beast, still, without a rider, it’s just uncontrolable fierce beast. Rider on his own maybe a “trivial threat”, still, he’s one responsible for that much damage gryphon can bring. Despite gryphon on its own is bad news indeed, still would gryphon on its own fly up to make a way to the archers/casters/what-else-ranged-threat-can-be being circled by infantry/whatever? I doubt it. But with the rider, they can do it if they feel the threat is sufficient.
Sure, if you bang a gryphon and a knight together, the knight will win. Like I said before, if that wasn’t the case, knights would already be completely useless as long as gryphons were available. However, while gryphons do require more careful positioning than knights, their ability to bypass obstacles and avoid attacks of opportunity means that it’s also easier to get the position you want. Knights often have no viable option than to charge through the enemy’s screening units – gryphons can fly over them to either flank or pounce on the enemy’s support line. This is enough of an advantage in an open field – in battlefields with significant obstacles (anything with walls, forest hexes, certain lairs) it becomes massive. Ultimately, you can use a gryphon rider as a poor-man’s knight and charge them straight into battle – they won’t perform as well as knights in this role, but they’ll do okay. However, you can’t use a knight to fly over an obstacle and deal with an annoying enemy ranged unit.
Well, I didn’t suggest punching them face-to-face, did I? Still, I would argue with the “knights would already be completely useless as long as gryphons were available”. Yes, gryphons can fly, that can help in many situations. Still, despite being unable to pass obstacles, knight still can’t be easily outplayed (they’re well round unit). The only disadvantage of a knight in that case, that it’s not easy to use in siege (however, I’m pretty sure that for the siege we can bring something else)
You’re making a mountain out of a molehill.
If I really wanted to do that, I would. But I’m not even started (:D)
With randomness and in MP, it surely can’t be reliable. I’m not playing MP, so I can’t say much on that, sorry. Still you can find counters not relying on blight (polearms still useful, Draconian Charger is awesome). And, for blight, if not goblins, rogues/druids and even sorcs still can push elves back. And nagas (if you’ll see their dwelling, can be a pain, Glutton is natural elven kill…erm…eater :D)
Furthermore, even if we did think this was a serious problem, then taking the top unit and giving them a bonus to defense against physical is not going to address it.
I’m not trying to counter blight (or other elemental damage in other cases) with physical defence 😀
Also, the blight weakness is that makes Gryphon Riders not jack-of-all-kicks (read, OP can’t be countered), but just pretty good unit to play around with.
It’s really quite simple. If the city is mostly relying on ranged units for defenses, simply fly over the walls and engage them. If the city has enough melee defenders to make that too dangerous, then you might combine it with a conventional assault, holding the flyers back until the right time. But usually, you’re still better off just sending the flyers straight over the walls and taking out the softest units you can reach. Against stronger defenses you’ll probably take casualties among the flyers, but in such circumstances you’re probably likely to take even more casualties if you don’t have them.
Ah, it’s more clear now, thanks. Well, it depends on “if the city is mostly relying on ranged units for defenses” or not. If they’re relying on ranges, then yes, any flyer can make day yours (if used properly, ofc). Still (as elves especially), it’s the pain to (because of blight again, also their “filth pit” is really monstrous) siege goblin city without blight immuned units (and still, IIRC, “filth pit” can apply noxious vulnerability and weakened).
Given the setup, you were probably expecting me to triumphantly say ‘knights’, but that would be dishonest. However, despite your claims of them being better than gryphons on the basis of a spurious one-on-one face-to-face matchup, Knights are (or were) the second worst. There are good reasons why these two units were buffed in the update, and why making cavalry evolve to knights was considered a balanced option.
Oh, looks like I can’t remember what Beetles and Knight were like before 1.4
Depending on how valuable you considered flying to be, the prepatch consensus order was roughly beetles, knights, shock troopers, flyers, gryphons, then firstborn, with firstborn dropping behind the flyers and gryphons with people who valued flying.
I can’t see the reason of Firstborn being behind the Flyers, but I see why Flyers is also behind the Gryphons.
The reason why flyers are behind gryphons is partially because gryphons are inherently slightly better, and because there are more upgrades that affect cavalry than infantry.
Couldn’t say better myself.
So. I’m still waiting on your explanation as to how humans can make much better dreadnoughts than high elves even with high elves having armoured gryphon riders… when from my perspective, high elves already represent fierce competition for humans as a dreadnought race even with unarmoured gryphons due to the new tactical and strategic options that unicorns and gryphons open up.
Well, I was incorrect with some words, my apologies. I meant that they be better, not that much better. Still, they’re better (pun intended), I’ll try to be as short as possible:
1)even if human racial bonus to production is small, it allows them to build up their empire on supersonic speed (with expander it’s light speed), because of humans synergy with dreadnougth class
2)because of 1), humans can outrun elves in terms of research
3)due to 1) and 2) they can go on offensive (ot at least harrasing) earlier
4)human knight allows them cleaning more difficult sites earlier and easier (and more goodies from that)
5)human dread (partially because of racial units) fares good against any class (except sorc, especially elven sorc)
7)human dread can easily rule the waves (if there are water tiles)
8)is optional due to 7), but the human dread can mantain cities happyness much more easily from early to midgame (in lategame, all have 800 in all cities)
Maybe I forgot smth I dunno, if I’ll have time today, I’ll check
I’ll take a stab at the new world order for T-3′s, if you don’t mind. Drax has already given a good summary of the status quo, so I’ll leave that alone.
I think it is more or less the same at the top, except that the fliers all have much more specialized roles (Flyers are now dedicated anti archers, gryphons more for priests or general stuff, and eagle riders are super scouts), and are overall pretty equal. Except for the warlord and rouge, of course.
The First Born is still probably the best of the not fliers, but everything else is fairly equal. Beetle riders have gotten much better, with the chance to get the goblin healing in sometimes, and the ranged weaken/degenerate/both making it a potentially very high damage unit.
Knights are better at clearing, not devout, and can evolve from human cavalry, and Orcs got the amazing “victory rush” ability.
Ah, thanks. I forgot what they were like before 1.4 (haven’t played since 1.2 to 1.4)
<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Ilaro wrote:</div>
Trolls should have bridge concealment!
And a new trait called<br>
‘This is my bridge!’<br>
Which grants + X * 2 Dmg to ALL channels, but lowers the Def + Res by X.
Afterall, you’d be pretty pissed if some Golbin suddenly walked around your rooftop
And also ‘Unpredictable’ trait – each combat round troll can do something unpredictable enough 😀
If troll kingdom dwelling ever get implemented.. first thing I will do is acquire six of them and place them onto a bridge. And wait for some random ai to wander by.
I will play with Finntroll (with rare adds of Herr Mannelig, by In Extremo) in my audio forever than 😀
wish they would look less like ogres, like the existing troll, and more like in old fary tails or Scandinavian mythology
especially in that case
Unless the dreadnought has some golem’s mixed in, or following in a support role, of course. I’ve actually found goblins to be not that effective at anti elf warfare, since their hp malus makes it easy for elves to arrow them to death. I prefer orcs, since the hp buff and throw curse at long range make them really great at setting up devastating hornet swarms or whatever.
Well, I just don’t want to bring whole other paragraph, but orcs should be viable
Well, both mobility and tactical capacity are important, so I was incorrect to answer so short, my apologies. In terms of mobility and “sudden strike” Gryphons better, I agree; but I think it’s incorrect to obsolette the Knight, just because, Rider can be armored and more maneuerable or whatever. Overall one can be better or worse than other, but “the devil is in the detail”
As a side note, the fact that classical military maxims agree with experience derived game concepts is a sign of excellent design.
Can’t agree more, thanks for quoting btw
It is also interesting to think about the Eagle rider, who is now slightly faster than the gryphon rider, and probably a little better than it at ambush. It is, however, markedly inferior in tactical combat, so I think they are about equal at the top.
For the Dreadnought, this would be an opportunity to get the best (or tied for best in golden realms) t-3 for less cost and with more defense.
I also think you are somewhat missing the point: the claim isn’t that it is op relative to the other classes, but that it would upset the “racial meta” for dreadnought in a way that doesn’t fit the lore.
Well, *little offtop* who’s the worst then? *little offtop ended*.
Well, I haven’t dismissed that claim yet (:D). Partially because I don’t see Gryphon Rider something special for dread (in oppose to WL, who can have truly mobile force to be reckoned with, with that oustanding HA, good GR and Mmanticore) that would violate the “racil meta”, partially because there is still a lot of counters (I’ve forgot about Wild Magic, for example) that disallow gryphons strongly upset others.
Yeah, that should be nice addition