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Woah, it’s Great Wall of text 😀 (though I’ve read it all)
Still, I find it odd, that we’re discussing that ONE class will become OP
Well, there are two different gryphons as I see it. That t2 gryphons is…well, wild; that used by rider is “domesticated” since they losed their “dedication” to goodness and don’t care what they with their rider do. (that’s obviously the same kind of situation with unicorns as well, but that’s not on the topic)
Well, gryphon can continue the fight, but also can just fly away (if they’re so sentient) if they lose their rider (surely, if they were bred, they can’t abandon their so easily, but who knows what’s going on into the head of that particular gryphon :D)…well that whole situation of theorycrafting tires me, so let’s go further on the list.
Sure, the gryphon rider gets blight vulnerability that the regular gryphon doesn’t – but the rider is also adding nearly 50% more health and 2 resistance. I think that more than compensates for the vulnerability.
Well, it’s not easily compensate (armor also don’t give you safety against this), this is just gives “plain” survivability. If you know, where, when, and more importantly what with, your opponent plans to attack you, you have time to find counters (it’s just general rule, I know). Back to our situation, goblins (no comment)/rogues (no comment)/archdruids (many summons have blighted dmg)/sorcs (watcher melee/eldritch horror melee) have more counters for the elves at all, that anyone else. No matter which class you’ll use (as elves), mentioned opponents have tactical advance – elven troops have a weakness that can be…no, MUST be exploit. Have you ever seen goblin archdruid with spiders and goblin Big Beetles? It’s terryfying (if properly used) to the elves.
As for comparisson with the knight, the knight wins. Knight is well round cavalry unit…blah-blah-blah. There are situations where the knight performs better (despite tireless and first strike gryphons have). While I agree gryphon have more mobility, it’s need more careful maneuvering that knight. Personally, I don’t find Gryphon Rider with pistols something scary (despite +1 ranged), and still doubt that armored rider will obsolette knight and become an abomination. I find that Eagle Rider is more scary (had an issue with 4 hits in a row were missed by luck, 3 hits from Longbow and one spell), I’ve also metioned why. Partially agree on dreadnought siege capabilities, but neither Gryphon nor Eagle can’t improve situation at whole (maybe I just can’t understand what tactic you use).
P.S. there always will be those who disagree, in one way or another.
P.P.S. I hate to write large posts 😀
I’m pretty sure this has been discussed previously, and in said discussion the participants thought it was intended because:
1) The rider may be wearing armour, but the gryphon is the larger target that is probably receiving most attacks and it doesn’t have armour.
2) Dreadnought synergies. In the current balance, dreadnoughts don’t have flying class units and to get a flying unit from another source means forfeiting the bonuses that dreadnoughts get with armoured units. Making gryphon riders armoured would make them hands down the best racial tier 3 for dreadnoughts, making high elves clearly the best race for dreadnoughts (dreadnought bonuses apply best to archers and cavalry, and high elves are strong competitors in both). This would be unfortunate both from a balance perspective and from a thematic perspective (high elves should not be the best dreadnought race!) – and seriously, pistolier gryphon riders are good enough without getting the armoured discount and defence bonus.
Valid points, still:
1) While gryphon larger than the rider (and gryphon unarmored) if you kill gryphon first you’ll have to deal with rider (who can be not so powerful himself, still can calculate his actions), but if you kill rider first you’ll have nothing more than (even dangerous) beast (without its handler it’s mere beast, but with its handler it can be killing machine), and even the mightiest beast can be countered.
2) Well, HE is still weaker than humans (or dwarves) in this field (at least because 20% blight weakness, and blight damage is quite popular), also riders (despite first strike and tireless) is weaker (though slightly) than knights (not only because humans don’t have weakness)
I already think that gryphon riders are the best T-3′s for Dreadnoughts, although eagle riders are so incredibly fast and get a ranged bonus.
with armored, they are going to have exceptionally good defensive and offensive capabilities.
At this point, human is a good dreadnought choice because you get two armored pistol capable units. If the elves offer the same, then there would be little point to picking human.
Well, regarding Eagle Riders, I mentioned that
5) halfling Eagle Rider, despite being more fragile (still have “luck”) have Wing Beat and (on elite) backstab (and IIRC backstab can be applied to Wing Beat, causing, with little tactics, three-units-backstabed-in-one-beat) isn’t that grand?<br>
and while Gryphon Rider have theirs tireless and first strike, it can’t do things like that.
Armored Gryphon Rider will still be vulnerable to some sorts of damage, as I mentioned before (don’t forget 20% blight weakness, it’s much a bane to the elves if used correctly). Humans still be (a way) better dreads, even if we’ll have grypons armored. HE will not make humans “little point” (a lot factors there), they just can provide a competition (also, IMO, not as powerful as it can be, I find dwarves a lot stronger dreads, even if they haven’t cavalry/flyer).
P.S. If we’re discussing Gryphon Riders usability in case of Dreadnoughts, why not say anything about other classes as well? They still have something to offer (except sorc and druid) to both offensive and defensive capabilities (and I don’t find Dreadnougths bonuses TOO good for not-machinery)
Yes, it doesn’t make much sense at first glance.
I suspect it was either a simple oversight or – more likely – to ensure that a flying T3 isn’t over-powered.
Well, I suspect this is an oversight, because:
1) unarmored (without that trait) units either don’t have an armor at all or have a thing that couldn’t be called armor, but Gryphon Rider have an armor that looks like Unicorn Riders one (all of those regardind units models)
2) since it’s “cavalry” class, it’s affected by any polearm-wielder (and some cavalry, like Orc Black Knight, wield that too), that way they receive more damage (despite they have first strike, most of polearm-wielders have first strike too, causing Gryphons loose theirs when defending, and attacking they still receives more damage from polearms)
2.1) and if someone using polearms have Pillar of Stylites, it’s even more devastating (though it’s only applies to “pikeman” class)
3) armored units, despite have more armor, susceptible to armor piercing, and since most polearm-wielders (despite receives that on medals) have armor piercing, it can be suicidal to meet that thing wyth Gryphon Rider
3.1) musketeers and crosbowmen also have an armor piercing available
4) all rogue heroes/leaders have an access to “stronger than steel” that giver armor piercing to all his/her/its units, and with leader being rogue (backstabing feast, lol) it can be really painful
5) halfling Eagle Rider, despite being more fragile (still have “luck”) have Wing Beat and (on elite) backstab (and IIRC backstab can be applied to Wing Beat, causing, with little tactics, three-units-backstabed-in-one-beat) isn’t that grand?
6) Elves have 20% poison weakness (despite I’m being unable to see the reason in that, I’m accepting it), that’s deadly already, and if combined with polearms and flanking (or even better, backstabing)…well, let’s pray for their sould instead 😀
I’m not sure I’ve find all counters
I’m strongly doubt that “armored” Gryphon Riders will be OP (they still be pretty balanced)
I would prefer more complicated “racial units” system: instead of just add new units, split each classes unit line into two – one is currently present for one class (let’s call it general line), second will be racial class (as alternative to general) – so berserker in general will be blade dancer in elven racial warlord line, something we can call executioner (orcish shock trooper in t4, instead manticore), dwarven paragon (obviously firstborn into t4) instead shrine of smiting etc, etc, etc.
P.S. I’m lazy bastard, instead of thinking more on that topic and post it separatly, I’m hijacking other topic instead xD
All they really need to do is allow us to create heroes the same way we can leaders. Or give a toggle at leader creation: Allow use as Hero. (And one for leader…). After that, allow us to plant these libraries loadable in, so we could just work together as a community and make as much heroes as we want, and use all of those together. If everyone here made 2 heroes, we’d have all the heroes we’d ever need.
Well said, couldn’t agree more
Yes, I think the game could do with creating more Heroes as well. I too am getting repeats. I’m sure it could randomly make much more.
Or, at least, it could use player created leaders as heroes (it’ll also put “save leader” option to good use)
Me and my girlfriend set heroes to leader +2 yet they repeat too much i agree, pool of heroes should be doubled atleast.
Well, (it’s just my dream, lol) there should be enough heroes to play 20 heroes + leader setup with 8 players the same race 😀 (as mentioned before, it’s just a dream)
Seconded. Playing “leader only” games (sometimes I want to be weird :D), often I don’t know what should I do with the second copy of whatever I’ve already have
Random thought on Exalted – pull him to t4, with respectable stats/abilities (while Shrine…well, I dunno what to do with this one)
Damn it how dare you complain about first world problems when I’ve yet to get a summon phoenix spell when I get summon kobolds all the time! ><
I’ve yet to see Dire Pinguin spell 😀 (just for lulz)
I second that. More than ten times i got sage, i only got phoenix once. Then when i got Tier 6 secret spell, it’s always true resurrect over and over instead of summon phoenix.
It’s really odd, both summon phoenix and true resurrect is the only tier 6 secret spells, yet most of the time i got true resurrect, not that true resurrect is worse than summon phoenix, it’s just weird.
Well, you can end up without t6 spells at all, like Mass Bless + Mass Curse (one time had that) or Shock Missle and great Immolation (that happened too). In any case it’s weird, despite the thing based on RNG.
There’s always ways for every class to face warlord in late game, and imho theocrat is one of the easiest class. Warlord become very troublesome when he activates global assault, this means you need your armageddon. And if you have power of the word, try it, that spell is one of the bane of warlord, except if it’s HE warlord that decide to use mass mounted archer.
Well, while I agree, that any class can find a way to pulverize WL in late game, there is still a racial factor. For example, goblin WL, dwarven theo; even with toughness of warlord units (especially if goblin WL use only mounted troops), theocrat just go on face punching spree. And if we reverse their roles (dwarven WL, goblin theo), it will be a tough fight for theo, who can still can be victorious, its also depends on some luck.
Focus and defeat the warlord leader/hero first, and it’s gone, i’m serious, the stack that is with him will lose the blood brother buff completely. You may have to sacrifice units to do this, but it’s worth it in late game.
It should be easy walk if Armageddon is already active, Mark of Heretic before engagement and (it better be) orc/human theocrat = problem solved (but it’s easier to say than to do) 😀
However, I don’t want to face warlord (any, especially human/orc/dwarf/elf) in late game as theocrat (human/orc/dwarf ones can be better than others), better give a shot to someone else if possible (also, will pray for WL getting owned by sorc – Watcher and Eldricth Horror perfectly benefit from our Armageddon spell)
Also, finally found Exalted useful: work well with Draconian Flyers, good for halflings (their racials are terrible for theocrat, pony/eagle are exceptions), good for scouting (flyer after all), good for harassing/delaying the enemies, also can be a god with Shrine in sieges (both sides, works good)
As for dungeons, I finally found it, in new game I’m playing (4 teams with 2 player each, each team has one theocrat, lol), still it’s far away from any capital (should bring some settler on), still it’s time consuming, to build unit production building to use it properly
Well, I’ll try (to properly use) Exalted that game, sounds like fun
Yeah, I know it can be crucial to have some structures, especially in random game (I’m playing them almost exclusively)
Anyway, thanks for clarifying, some moments I didn’t know (like slaughter pits, never ever found a dungeon, even in 150+ turns some games, bad luck I guess :D)
But as for slaughter pits…well, if I’ll build it, then Exalted (especially with Holy War) will take a place in my army (before that, I’ll stick with old good something :D).
Still would like to see Exalted with charge (why they should be worse than any racial flyers?), and Evangelist with (even weak) ranged attack (I like Succubus style – getting supports in melee, but still, it’s support units after all :D)
I should give a try to Exalted after that all, maybe they’re not so useless even without HW and Killing Momentum (sometimes I use them as city defenders though, just as Shrine; there I found them not bad, even without all buffs)
Forgot to mention in interesting units – Orc Greatsword (with all theocrat buffs, overwhelm and bleeding wounds it’s another good crusher)
Well, (can’t wait for the night, so posting now :D) seems I was confused with some combinations of theocrat units, still have a thought of them being somewhere lacking something. Despite Evangelist is not so bad (as I thought before), he can’t still replace racial supports at full; he just can be very good in conjunction with racial support together. Crusader still working better with fragile (elves, goblin, halflings), but others can have a good time with’em too (humans, however don’t have a choise, dragonians also). As for Exalted, he can be used if you don’t have heroes at all (I’m playing that kind of game now), since you have only leader, only leader army and Exalted have resurgence – so they can be useful (but still I find them not as good as they, IMO, should be)
Halflings. Evangelist (Brew Brother is worst racial support, except healing sphere though; halfling Evangelist in exchange have minor bard skills (!)), Crusader and Eagle Rider.
Humans. Priest, Crusader, Knight. Evangelist can be also added, for more deadly combo with Priest.
Orcs. Priest, Crusader (thanks, it’s really terminator), Shock Trooper. Evangelist can be also added, for more deadly combo with Priest. Also can add Black Knight (pike, charge, armor piercing, overwhelm; with theocrat bonuses…you’re still undecided? Then Black Knights of Faith riding to you, lol)
Elves. Storm Sister, Crusader, Gryphon Rider. Evangelist can be also added, for more deadly combo with Storm Sister. Can also bring Unicorn Rider (phase, armor piercing, charge, bleeding wounds; much like Orc Black Knight, very impressive with theocrat)
Draconians. Elder (can’t refuse immolation), Crusader (like humans, not much choise), Flyer. Evangelist can be also added, for more deadly combo with Elder. Also can use Raptor (like orcs and elves, t2 cavalry can be really devastating with theocrat; bleeding wounds, scorching heat and charge? not bad if you ask me).
Dwarves. Forge Priest (immolation again, that really powerful), Crusader (if all have’em, why not dwarves), Firstborn. Evangelist can be also added, for more deadly combo with Forge Priest. Boar Rider also can be deadly.
Goblins. Blight Doctor (he always good), Crusader, Big Beetle. Evangelist can be also added, for more deadly combo with Blight Doctor. Also, don’t forget the Warg Rider, it’s a killer (charge, volunteer, first strike, overwhelm; this one is reaaly good, how I could miss that)
And last. Another interesting units to theocrat to play with. Despite pikemen doesn’t receive devout, if you’re lucky you’ll have ‘pillar of stylites’ (or how it names), that give’em more spiritual damage. There they are: Human Halberdier (much like Draconian Charger, but overwhelm instead of charge; pretty dangerous against shields cuz of that) , Draconian Crusher (this one is infantry, so it has devout; overwhelm, charge, tireless, projectile resistance and that’s t1 (!); not so tough as elder tiers, still can be a good addition), Draconian Charger (polearm, charge, first strike, armor piercing, pike square; not so tough, as elder tiers; still dangerous one) .
Well, I was wrong about Crusaders (at least some more cases should be mentioned) and (sometimes, kinda like Crusader) Evangelist. Still, some racial supports can have a good time kicking 😀
Will put the renewed racial theocrat things next night I guess (will play theocrats more, maybe find something more to say about)
Ok, when I’ll in the city, and more importantly, play some time, I’ll give all of you my another consideration of theocrat units (just because I can access an YouTube from my phone and internet provider it doesn’t means I can answer in a full)
If you’re interests in what that obsolete country it may be, just look at east of eastern Europe, lol)
Crusader. So, should I swap offense to defence on durable races? I would prefer not to. I find them very useful on more fragile races (should find a place in elven ranks that way).
Evangelist. I don’t know I want Succubus number 2. I would better use devoted racial supports (but I’ll take a look to them again, maybe at least in some cases, they’ll show’em to myself)
As for Exalted, I can’t find a place for him, he looks like t2 named t3 (I found some racial t2 are more dangerous than him, ofc with nice hero only and gold medal also).
But anyway, it’s again is just my opinion
It’s time to post my opinion of rogue slass units (made a post of theocrat a few minutes ago)
I find rogue units are overall better than just race units (there are exceptions of course, but not so many as, for example, in case of theocrat). Also racial tier 3 units, can be nice addition. In short – rogue is quite balanced class (at all related to units) that have a good amount of units combinations that can be fun to play with.
Last time played with goblin rogue, and I was amused how goblin Succubus kicks asses. I’m not kidding, 2x Beetles, 2x Succubus and Shadow Stalker = total elimination of almost any independent party on the map. There can be problems with some structures, like Wizard Tower and any of the same toughness; also haven’t tried against a player, but expect tough fights with any warlord/archdruid/sorc and also dwarves and orcs. I think there isn’t much to add, I’ll try to use that setup with other races (just instead of Beetles any other racial T3), but I’m sure it’ll be a massacre of independents in any case
First of all, I want to say that the whole post is just my opinion. Thanks.
Well, played some theocrats (alongside with others) and I have a bad feeling about theocrat class units. Sure, they have spiritual protection (and exalted has resurgence)…but that’s all, in most cases they worse than racial units. Evangelist is completely unused (racial supports are far better); Exalted is really bad (despite he has resurgence, I’ll better save skill points and have divine justicars, or how’s it called, on my theocrat class heroes); Crusader, however, is a nice addition to some races (goblins especially), but in most cased he’ll be replaced with another cavalry/flyer. Another case is Shrine, which I don’t want to use again (despite nice toughness, nice abilities and damage…I should always return to my cities after cleaning some recourse sites or ONE strong or tougher dungeon, it’s ridiculous), I’ll better reconsider my army composition. As for racial units and theocrat class.
Dwarves. Firstborns and Forged Priests. Maybe Boar Riders/Crusaders, but thats optional. I thinks that’s all can be say about Dwarven theocrat.
Humans. Knights and Priests. Honestly, I can’t find the reason to use anything else.
Goblins. Blight Doctors, Beetles AND Crusaders. That’s really interesting, I find Crusaders fits well to goblins.
Elves. Stroms Sisters and Gryphon Riders. Can’t find theocrat units useful.
Orcs. Priests and Shock Troopers. Can add Black Knights. Again, theocrat units unused – I can’t find the reason to use them.
Draconians. Elders and Flyers. Can also use Raptors. Pretty much the same outcome as with others.
Halflings. Brew Brothers, Eagle Riders AND Crusaders. Again, like with goblins, Crusader works pretty well with halflings.
So, goblins and halflings find theocrat units not as useless, and dwarves undecided.
Well, after the 1.09 patch it seems to working very well (I haven’t experienced any crash in latest games, played until 70-80 turn two times, 45-60 turn five times)
Do you happen to remember the settings you applied to the map when you created this game and which game-flow this is?
Empire building, all settings maximized (‘Many’), except ‘Starting units’ – those are only ‘Strong’April 7, 2014 at 12:01 in reply to: Why is max city domain radius sometimes 8 and sometimes 9??? #70342
Also, there is the Warlord skill (‘Authority of the Sword’ or smth like that) that gives +1
But how far are you willing to take this? Can undead be good?
Well, undead is another case; they’re evil by definition of undead, aren’t they?
But even if orcs/goblins inveted as dark/evil races, why they should be dark/evil by default (since they can trying to escape the cliche)?
Anyway, it’s just my opinion
Also the part where you migrate an Evil population and it gets you Evil points alignements :O
But I disagree with the part that goblins need to be evil.
I agree. There should be a possibility to ‘assimilate them with light points depleted’ 😀
And I agree with races being neutral (that means no evil goblins, ie)
But they could use some alignment attached bonuses though (smth like, evil orcs +2 to melee and range dmg, while good orcs take +2 to def and I-forgot-the-name-of-stat-with-the-Ankh-being-its-symbol)
Yep, my thoughts exactly
I thought, even if, in general, units are the same, they could be differentiated by adding them some kind of racial abilities. Let’s take elven and human archers. Say, elves will get ‘no range penalty’, while humans will take crossbows (with standard ‘medium’ range) and, some kind of, armor penetration bonus. Or let’s take a look at musketeers. Human and dwarven. If I don’t even know what can be given to humans, but the dwarven ones, can, possibly be slightly less dangerous at range, but Death-incarnation lite in melee.
Anyway, it’s just my thougths
Thanks for answering! The game running very well
despite these CTDs
Yes, I’ve finally catch it with Debug Mode. DxDiag, log file, dump, latest autosaves uploaded here https://www.dropbox.com/s/hbbowt82h5fp027/AoW3%20logs.rar