Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
I don’t think some of the options on the table are looking at things very comprehensively.
It’s very easy to outmaneuver a WL, the class has NO movement traits inherent in its class line-up, except MH and Human Warbreeds with Swimming (not counting the Scout, since it’s not a combat unit). And all those wonderful 32 and 36mp, go right out the window the second you hit a swamp, mountain, forest and river if you don’t have the necessary race to compensate. And even then it’s tricky. (Orcs, Humans, Draconians, Frostlings need not apply obviously)
There’s also NO True Sight in the class unit roster, (not even as a band-aid for a Hero upgrade). As soon as you fight an AD, Sorcerer, Rouge, get ready to be ambushed. Yeah, sure drag a T2 support along, then you’re moving at a whopping 28mp… Not exactly neck-breaking speed (even at double)!
As a WL (and DN for that matter) you rely on building a massive economic advantage which you can then turn into military prowess. Except when you do expand heavily, you can’t afford to adequately defend all your cities. You’re going from man to man coverage to start a Zone Defense, and what’s you’re best option there? MH’s again, w/ Explorer. Meaning you can’t bring all those other heavy hitters along, because again, strategically your movement sucks! So what’s your answer: Death March!
There’s also a human factor to consider. If you have a lot of cities and various stacks, It’s harder to keep track of everything, especially with a timer (3 mins is not a lot, when you got a big empire/multiple armies to manage on different fronts!!) and a game that’s going into the late phase. It’s much easier and efficient when you’re a Rouge, AD, or Sorcerer, with a highly mobile, CONCEALED stack-strike team to be quick, and sneaky, and surprising; than when you’re a lumbering WL shackled with supports, to be even remotely agile and constantly playing catch up!!! (because against a good opponent you won’t see ’em coming!!)
You NEED that double movement later in the game, not 1/2 extra movement!So let’s say, I do cast Death March, and get there to catch my opponent, and what?
I start the fight with 70% -80% hp loss??? Not exactly a great incentive to use the spell for a heavily melee-depended class, wouldn’t you say?[Just for grins, take a 115 hp thoroughbred, elite Knight. You loose 67/68 hps.
With field medic it takes, 68/12 = 5.66, 6 rounds to get back to full health
Field medic and a 20 hp healing item, on 5 Knights? still approx. 5 turns (2 turns on the first, 4 turns before the 2nd and 3rd Knight is at a 100%; and by the 5th turn, the stack is at +\- full health again)]Exhausting Fatigue, 50% tactical movement rate???
This is somewhat rhetorical, but we all do understand that WL is a primarily melee class, with only average to low Resistance values (worse with Tigrans and Orcs), and no flying units until the T4, right? And what else do Rogue, Sorcerer, AD have all in common? Oh yeah, lots of elemental damage, often ranged, with debilitating effects (entangle, stun, freezing, throw curse etc.)
So you either get kited to death, or if you do make it into melee range, you get decommissioned (converted, stunned, frozen etc.).
Tell me if I am wrong, but the WL usually overcomes those obstacles because he can quickly cover the distance in Tactical Combat and engage his enemies, and has great alpha strike capabilities. If he looses that, what chance does he have? The units are not built to withstand a lot of elemental/magic attrition. Wouldn’t you guys agree??So, what’s the point of catching or outrunning your opponent to a strategic HVT, (a bridge, your City, his City, a shrine..) that if you get there first, but then get dragged into manual combat, it’s an almost guaranteed Death Sentence?
Hey, maybe that’s what we should rename the spell; from Death March to Death Sentence if any of those proposals get implemented.. 🙂 LOLThe PBEM issue, power Hero leveling, I get.
But just increase the Tier and research cost.
Let’s not start the game with Death March researched in your spell book.
Make it so it can’t be awarded by clearing a Lost Library. (which I think is Spell Tier-dependent, I could be wrong though…)But please, PLEASE, do not nerf this spell into oblivion!!!
I got over 2K hrs in this wonderful game, and the vast, vast majority in WL, I think adding any of these strategic and tactical penalties into the spell is a bad move!!And what was JJ’s other premise for this tread?
Oh yeah,… it’s too good combined with healing, right?
Well, if I read @SpiritSeekers’ account correctly, his opponent got out-played by some clever player baiting and better planning, and not because Death March is OP. (Converting, webbing, etc. shenanigans are also a big aspect of his early success by his own admission!!)I think he put quite well himself:
…I must comment that it’s not always obvious and it takes a lot of puzzling to work effectively with Death March. There’s the pre-attack-scouting, without losing too much movement, to first find out where exactly the enemies are, since there are usually multiple ways he could have gone. Then working out for each death marched unit with different movement bonuses/penalties which paths to take to reach all intended targets with sufficient units. And then still be strong enough with 50% HP (or lower) to win the fight. I’m just saying it’s not a one-click = win button or something.
I’d say one important ‘counter’ to death march is map awareness…
I can’t really have said it any better myself.
So, first of all, AWESOME mod Garresh!
I’ve been playing WL, and I am curious what your thoughts were on the cataphract?
The level up abilities are still the same as mounted archers. For my personal playstyle they’re acting as beefed up versions of the MH as skirmishers, who can switch to bruiser as needed…I’m wondering, when I am thinking of heavy cavalry, I think of disruption formations and heavy tanks, etc. What if they had guard breaker, but only on a charge attack? That would keep them relevant long into late game… Just a thought..
They other thing I was thinking of is, what if they could have a more unique role, such as a support killer? Especially now with the T3 Supports… The AI builds those to no end in long SP games.
So, give them support slayer, maybe with predator? Lose some defense and attack, and give them an extra Resistance point (res 9 seems a bit low).
On veteran, give them break control (for some inter-unit synergy with Feral Berserkers)
On elite, give them a weak aura, 1 hex radius, to give adjacent units +1 resistance. Which would be nice for other WL unit formations, but open them up to AoE???Again, just some ideas…
Looking forward to your thoughts on this great looking unit.Anyway, really like these and the other units, keep up the great work!
Hospitals are rarely used, but totally have a place in siege scenarios potentially…
Something like 3HP healing per combat round to friendly non-Machine/Undead/Elemental(let’s be realistic on Elementals). Useful, but not that overbearing for the attacker to overcome either. Or simply 15HP per combat round to lowest HP friendly unit.
Possibly even only to friendly units still inside the walls(like how they changed Defensive Structures to only attack enemy units outside walls only).
I was thinking along those same lines, but strategically.
What if it were to give 3hp per turn for friendly units inside the domain, to help with early clearing, and cycling out wounded units?
Make it an earlier investment to compete in the building chain. It would help Elves primarily, but also Orcs with too damaged units where Victory Rush isn’t enough to compensate. Goblins could get essentially fast healing inside their domain? just a thought…Huh. I just had an amusing thought. In D&D there’s a thing called temporary hit points. … Course that involves an entirely new mechanic so…hm. I wonder if there’s some way to implement such an effect without it being as complicated…
Isn’t there already such an animal, in the halfling Brew Brother’s buff (an add’l 15 hp beyond max hp just for that encounter).
Isn’t that technically a form of temporary hp? I’d imagine you could work of that basis to make a Bard buff in the manner you describe, perhaps?Thanks Fen, the analogy with the migration helps me understand why it functions the way it does.
However, I can’t help but wonder, if it wouldn’t be a ‘bad’ option to introduce another mechanic, call it healing/reverting/curing, whatever 🙂 , to return the inhabitants back to a living state (w/o effectively migrating).
Say at a standard 6 turns, and perhaps have AD, Theo’s, or Master Creations user, do it 5?
I don’t know… It’s just an idea…
I think I would enjoy such an option. Especially on small and medium maps, where you often do not have access to other towns of that particular race to perform a ‘migration’ purge.
(Without it you may completely be denied access to some races, as was the case in my game described above. Or even if other settlements of that race are available, you’d have to conquer one of those first, and then ‘liberate’ a ghoulified city of said race. That just feels somewhat cumbersome to me.)Also admittedly, I suppose that it’s quite possible I just happen to experience an extreme fringe case in my game…
But anyway, I thought I throw it out there, fwiw… 🙂For what it’s worth, I think that Monster Hunters are ultra cool – and also they don’t compete with Mounted Archers, which means I have a slot for both.
And there’s that of course,… I agree their model is really neat looking! 🙂
And outside of the Scout or expanding on that with the Explorer spec, it’s the only unit before the manticore, when you have an additional movement trait, so it’s nice not being confined to roads and bridges alone (racial traits not withstanding, ofc)
No, no RP issue at all. It’s more that I find Mounted Archers so vastly superior to Monster Hunters for the same maintenance. So I simply wait till I can train Mounted Archers.
Uhh, okay… Personally my qualm with WL units, Beserker, MA, Warbreed, are their low res stat; which is why I prefer MH, phalanxes, and use Warbreeds and MA more to compliment my stack compositions, rather than as their nucleus. Beserkers I use more out of necessity in the early game to give me an edge, which I then replace with T3’s, racial & class, as the game progresses. (Unless I face a DN or a well developed Theo,… or if I have Tigrans… lol)
And since phalanxes and MH are armored, I can raise their res a bit further with the enchanted armory obviously, which I find quite useful/mitigating.
I also find MH to be more resilient in Auto than Beserkers (when clearing can become tedious later in the game…)
Anyway, interesting… thanks for answering/sharing!
… and I don’t use Monster Hunters when I play Warlord.
Okay, this is a bit off topic, but I find this to be a very curious preference.
I understand you like to play XL, very slow setting, etc.
Myself, I like to play L, XL but only with slow research, and I believe in another thread I discovered we had similar opinions on specializations…So is this a RP issue for you?
I get downright giddy when I get a crystal tree & trading post for MH.
And dwarven MH are just out of this world with xtra def & res, heavy crossbow.
Throw in Explorer and they’re just scary (true, they don’t benefit from Martial arts, but I don’t find that to be a strong handicap; and because of how early they come out, they maintain a lot of utility for me into the lategame with champion ranks.
(More so than Beserkers,… even though that changed for me somewhat as demolisher was added to their respective repertoire)Could you elaborate on that?
🙂
Awesome if you do!!! I really enjoyed watching it, and I’m curious how things will turn out when you try to take over the dwarven town.
I’ll stay tuned! 😉
Hey BBB,
a bit off-topic, I understand things are heating up with the Tournament, and you’ll be plenty busy… But,… :), do you think you may continue with your LP – tigran unifier game, beyond turn 34-35ish, & upload any of those,.. eventually?
Mounted Archers have already been mentioned, but I think especially now Human MA, which get blessed arrows right of the gate, they make a pretty decent SS deterrent. With focus chamber, they’ll deal quite a punch against SS. And with the Human RG upgrades, a quick cavalry force deals quite alright them, if not overly efficient.
Of course you’ll be building priests probably anyway, since they are so universally handy (heal, buff, elemental dmg).
And with the extra production you can get most of these 1-turn quite easily, even knights and phalanxes, I find.Lastly, I thought I mention, rather than kill phantasm warrior, I like to convert, charm, seduce them. With their low res they’re quite susceptible, & they’re great for early screens, especially for vaults of knowledge where you might only encounter 1 apprentice and early WL units struggle anyway…
Anyway, that’s just my two cents…
Machines are not the only thing in the game. Warlord has nothing against incorporeal.
Other class can deal with incorporeal by using support. Using racial units don’t help much against machines.
I don’t get that argument at all! You have High Elves, Dwarves, and then Draconians, that all bring various racial anti-machine options to the table…
Also, I not once seen an argument regarding Heroes. If I am a Theo who faces a DN, then perhaps one of my first heroes should be a Rouge (Sabotage, Stronger than Steel, Moving Target, Sadisim, Devout Slayer for anti-theo, etc.), or a DN hero (Sabotage, throw net, Forge Apron, the ‘battle field arsenal’ spell), or a Sorcerer (static shield, mass stasis, sphere of protection, star blades, stunning, shock dmg!)
Then there’s convert, charm (Rouge hero), seduce (nymph) available to all classes.
Get yourself some phantasm warriors, warbreeds w/ regrowth, etc., scoundrels w/ sabotage, there’s tons of those roaming the map. Befriend animal, get a shock serpent, or spiders to web. I think the game offers plenty of options to approach a problem side-ways and still be successful.Even if you pick the wrong specialization, you can model your heroes to fill any last minutes gaps to help compensate for glaring weaknesses.
Same holds true for your Rouge thread. Theo, AD, heck even WL Hero upgrades compensate for lack of innate healing quite well!
Anyway, not to be rude, and while I don’t post a whole lot, I do get a bit exhausted by reading these incessant claims of imbalance all across the spectrum.
I may skip this is subforum for awhile all together, and wait for things to settle down & draw my own conclusions from there,… and perhaps just look forward to this summer tournament instead! 🙂… Warlord(most class units)…
It’s only two units, MH & Phalanx. (& dwarven mounted archers now)
And sadly, there are no Draconian racial variants for either of those units. Just plain vanilla.… At which point, they might feel quite sad if suddenly they are incapable of gaining the Enchanted Armor bonus…
Which I do agree with you there, since they (those 2 units) don’t have anything else going for them, loosing out on the +2 def +1 res, would make these rather awfully plain choices…
…spirit immune horrors…
I think horrors have only 60% spirit protection, but yeah.. your point still stands
Well, alright, if everyone is OK with it as is, that is fine then.
What if they had less (-1) defense?
…just make them 2 shots instead of 3 …
Yeah I wouldn’t be too keen on that either.
Phasing itself seems like a nerf. Sprint helped with either getting in flanking positions or disengage without retaliations. And Martial Arts doesn’t help with elemental dmg. So the only thing that phase would be good for would be to get into flanking positions, but then there’s not a lot you can do to keep them safe (outside specific spells). HE HA just don’t have the stats to take a lot of punishment.
With phase you have to use another unit’s action to flank the engaging aggressor, before you can phase (if you have the AP left)… when with sprint you can do both of that with the same unit.
Again that seems like an overall nerf to me.
And what’s the advantage of an archer unit with alot of phasing anyway, outside of siege battles… maybe? You give up two attacks for one flanking one; on a unit that ignores range penalties. Perhaps when you’re mobbing up, but then the battle is over anyway…
(Doesn’t seem very efficient to me). Maybe I’m missing something?Edit: I guess you’d be forced to phase/fly your screening units along, otherwise it feels more like suicide…
Me and Ayenara tried one med + UG tonight. It also ended 47 turns in and we saw Sage, Paragon, Heptatopia, Monoculture and Eternal City during that time.
Dwarf <anything> is pretty scary to be up against.
One question: will we have settler start as standard or is it village?
May I ask what race/class you guys played as?
Same question for BBB? I know you said DN, but what race? And if I may, what did your opponent play as?
I’m just curious, I’m on the fence about the Tournament… It’s just that I am not very good at all at MP, and I thought I try a few games against the Emperor AI and see how I do with a timer, and less ‘turtleing’… 🙂
… Wooden Walls are vulnerable to Fire, but Stone Walls are not. The latter has been in the game since the beginning(or near enough to), actually.
You are right of course, I think I didn’t explain myself very well. (sorry!)
The stone walls themselves aren’t affected by fire, but the GATES for the stone walls, shouldn’t the gates which are graphically shown to be constructed out of wood, be vulnerable to fire dmg?
And it’s bugging me somewhat, because I’d like to say they used to be prior to 1.5x, though I am not a 100% certain. So it’s nagging at me… 🙂
And to take it a step further, it think innate fire dmg does just fine against gates, FB, Hellhounds, etc., but fire dmg granted by a buff doesn’t… At least that’s how it appeared to work in my last game in the beta. (I’m gonna have to play dwarves again to make sure…)
I love that MH’s now get Elemental Slayer (this bugged me ever since SS & elementals lost their ‘Monster’ type tag back in the day).
I am just curious, would it make sense to add ‘Elemental Slayer’ to Pest Control or Wizard Hunters for the DN hero upgrade (probably Wizard Hunters)
Most of the time Summon Slayer kicks in, but for e.g. in a Seal type victory condition, those elemental defenders do not have the summon tag, iirc… neither do the baby elementals on some mana nodes, and Heart Structures for that matter.Just thought, I throw that out there…
@BBB
is it intentional that Aeynara & Jomungur are in adjacent groups and could meet early in the tournament (after the group stages) or coincidence?
Or will the second round be randomized match-ups, unlike the World Cup for example?
Just wondering, it struck me as peculiar…
… I’ve never played any Warlord build without Creation Adept.
This made me smile, because I am the same way.
I’ve played WL w/o creation adept before and I always come back to it… LOL
And quite often, I play human WL & I still like getting bless/heal/cleanse the land… 🙂Back on topic, Creation Adept is always a safe bet.
But if you’re looking for alternatives, I personally like earth adept, in case you want to bring non-ug races below, and stoneskin works great with a lot of WL units/strategies…Uhm, last time I checked the Tigran Berserker cost an additional 15 gold and 5 Mana on top of the default 75gold and 10 Mana.
Based on the latest Beta notes, this is the final price for Tigran Berserkers, 75g 10m (not 90g & 15m)
Also, personally, I think predator & bloodthirsty, on a tireless (on gold) and bleeding inflicting unit is a great combo (throw in bless or stoneskin or last stand) and it can be brutally effective…
Just my 2 cents, fwiw…
“Coup-de-grace” too much?
It would synergize well with, that very dreaded 🙂 , frost aura and frozen from the SS??
The AI doesn’t build alot of Assassins as it is (at least that was my observation in the last few games that had Rogues in them).
I did notice the blocky edges on the shadows, now that you’ve pointed it out.
Mine do not seems as pronounced though, or at least I never quite took notice before; but that brownish/orange line though, that bothers me a lot!! On my screen it flickers… so it’s very distracting… lolI think it doesn’t work during naval combat, because the bodies aren’t available anymore once they sink (?).
You know what, I thought about something similar, so you may be onto something.
But still, I thought it was odd, so I figured I rather ask. You can still see the corpses (if you look closely there’s one of the manticores to the left hand side of the screenshot) idk…Maybe if that was explained in the ToW, that would help. Or a tooltip or something (work it into the spell description perhaps?)
Ahmm, I got a related observation. Inside dwellings’ boundaries, all the structures (i’ve noticed dungeons and Ziggurats for example) are already explored. That’s a definite change to 1.4; also it stands in direct contrast to vassals, who do not clear their own sites within their domain.
So, I’m not entirely sure if that’s a bug or intended?
Personally, I’d prefer it if it’s still up to player to clear structures within dwellings… but that’s just me.
+1 to the visual effect on Forgotten Cities (I got the same problem.. lol)
Yeah, if both work, I’d be kind of jealous.. 😉
(Too bad he’s not a halfling.)Also, I’ve just observed the same dilemma with a Orc Dark Knight, same thing the fire spit animation and sound didn’t trigger. Maybe it’s a cavalry thing?
Gameplay wise there is no problem with the effect of fire spit itself, that seems to function correctly.
I don’t believe so. The description of the spell reads: “Whenever a friendly unit is killed, its killer…”
If that’s case then it’s a bug. Either the spell doesn’t function correctly, or the description needs to be altered. (I vote for the former, makes more sense that way.. 🙂 )
but a thin brownish-orange line comes and goes along the left edge of the screen (similar to the color of the sand on the ground).
That one I remember I get as well.
Don’t recall the “blocky” texture/shadow edges… I’ll have to check again for that next time I’m in a Ziggurat. 🙂
