Forum Replies Created
Well, you have made some changes because of PBEM abuse, have you not? The result is that a group of MP players – and I assume a much larger group than are actually active in the forum, are hurt by this. So I am proposing something that will help, I hope, to make this group’s experience better. What is their specific issue? That can actually be ascertained I guess through a reasonably short discussion (not taking too much of any of our valuable time, yes my time actually does cost money to some German university institutions). And it can be resolved I guess with a fix that doesn’t break the game in any bad way, and works for all game moduses while retaining the choice you opted for bottom line.
If I could, I would fabricate for you, as for myself, discourse partners that were assumption free, I’d make them in china for 99 cents and ship them for free as well :).
Well, I actually play mostly PBEM ATM and since I am very busy and have a family, I doubt I will return to my serious MP days, so that is that. I also like the changes in this patch by and large as they are right now. Saying that I understand the complaints from the MP direction, since they do hurt the MP guys. Not in autocombat, but in the few PvP fights you are actually building towards, you are going to find yourself with sub-optimal abilities.
What I said about mods and MP is going to be quite precise I am afraid, I seriously doubt there is going to be any degree of MP mod gaming due to poor coordination of mods etc. So people are going to be disgruntled, but they will swallow the frog OFC. Problem is that 15HP per heal is quite low, especially for classes that, unlike theo, don’t have any other sources of healing except this hero unit. Thats why I suggested that as a compensation this will be increased.
I understand you are pissed off @tombles from all the arguments etc. but do you really want to be in the position of not making changes because @zaskow et al. were so irritating that you made up your mind? Whats the point to find the best solution or to show who is in charge?
I think some sort of compromise is due.
How about making sure that theo heroes get a strong 1xheal? I mean make sure their version of bestow Iron heart heals 25 or 30HP?
This should make sense, it does for me at least.
Same goes for AD etc…
I can definitely see Sorcerer heroes getting a better mend magical creature 🙂
It will still be 1x per battle but will be more substantial, and the amount of healing it will do in between battles will be more impressive, that is, the sustain, for MP that is more significant.
I also agree that the fact PBEM has this impact is not wholly fair for the MP community. There is no way that people will actually use mods to play together, human beings are not this social, and unless you devs are going to incorporate some sort of delivery mechanism into the game itself for mods, its not going to work, so mods for MP are not going to be something very functional I am afraid.
Perhaps there us a way to turn this into a toggle option? I mean healing. Cooldown or single use. Like hero-resurgence. This willresolve the issue, no?
Just for the proposed granary changes – I think if settlers hadv two prereqs: builders hall + granary that would be very effective indeed. So you will need both buildings, which is good. I’d say this is most effective. If not I’d +1 the granary idea. As well as some of the other changes proposed here, see what JJ for example @tombles.
Mana Fuel Cells costs the same mana per turn as the AD/theo pop growth spells.
You are entitled to voice your opinion, just like I’m entitled to voice mine. We obviously disagree, and you repeating yourself ad nauseum doesn’t seem like a winning strategy from where I’m sat.
If you’re right, and you can play Human Dread and get 7 cities by Turn 15, then please try it and show me, because it doesn’t seem possible to me and I’m genuinely exhausted from dealing with this all day.
Fair enough, once I got the time I will.
hmm. Base capital production is 40, + human bonus + mana fuel cells + +builders hall + some happiness, and you are easily in 90 production territory. Correct me if I am wrong but that is 2 (3 max) turn per settler after discount. It was easy to achieve within 15 turns before, without rushing settlers before, and you didn’t need to take DN for that, so now you do. Thats what I am saying and you don’t need to be Einstein to figure this one out or to play test this immensely to get the hard data for it, I’m sorry you got tired but this change is bad and I am entitled to voicing my opinion about it.
Goblins have a higher pop growth.
AD pop growth spells cost a shit load of mana, as a said earlier (you can read it) same goes for Theo spells (wrote it as well). Hence that wouldn’t really matter. The goblins discount is only 10%, so its much less substantial on the price. The actual pop increase is less substantial here, if you made the threshold tied to both gold and pop somehow but disengaged the human/tigran RG1 discount from POP that would be effective.
I am trying it- in at least 3 different games, but not live mp due to time constraints, but PBEM, what to do? Using Tigrans….
You realize this was true before, right? Human/Tigran Dread was always better at this strategy than other classes, for exactly the reasons you mentioned. I haven’t done anything that makes that better or worse, my changes slow that combo down as much as anyone else.
Got a triple digit I.Q. I’m fairly sure, but is that an excuse? the result is that now its even worse then before dude.
You have in fact made something that made it worse, not being able to rush directly effects the non-DN players worse then the DN players now. Hence this argument. Before it was a bit more competitive. If the change was more skewed toward population it would have been more balanced.
You could be right about Heptatopia, but the name literally means 7, so changing it is pretty tough. I suppose I could make it so you literally need 7 “Cities” as in the size, rather than settlements.
yes I know what hepta means, I meant the bonus is too large. +100 for either armies OR cities is already huge. BOTH is excessive. I was asking for a nerf of some sort. Maybe +50? maybe split it? Dunno.
How about giving Theocrat heroes flying at level 9? And also Rogue? So these classes can actually match up with their own flying units, on the one hand, and compete with Sorcerer, who has Floating – fairly on, and for 4 points (iirc at level 5?).
The RG1 could simply halve population cost of settlers instead giving a gold discount.
Too weak. Nobody will take it – 500 pop is a joke.
Hmm… I think the solution for the settler spam is not good because it does privilege production too much. This retains the advantage that Tigrans and ESPECIALLY Humans have in RG1, in MP situations, and it privileges DN as a class. Thus the Combo HUMAN + DN becomes very powerful indeed, especially now that DN has a healing ability within the class itself, and considering the inherent Human cavalry evolution abilities.
* At 188 Gold, a Human/Tigran DN can probably do a settler in 2 turn, and certainly do it in 3 turns after RG1 with Mana Fuel Cell on its capital.
I don’t think you guys have thought this one through to the end.
I have made multiple suggestions on how to balance city spam without hurting MP before. I think the easiest solution here really would be simply to just keep the price as it were (200 gold), but introduce a population threshold required for the production for a settler.
Thus only a settlement of a size X or above will be able to produce a settler (town or city).
An alternative will be to increase the population cost of a settler.
Either way I think it is crucial to address the Human and Tigran RG1 economic settler discount.
If none of these are taken, I would simply ask that the price of settlers is kept at 200 gold – which is made the base price for all races( including dwarfs!) and instead what is tweaked is the population costs of each settler (pop increasing spells are very expensive early on(!). This the change that disallows the rushing of settlers already precludes city spamming, this will resolve this situation anyhow.
At any rate the biggest problem really is that HEPTATOPIA is IMBA- it is a HUGE advantage to any player that gets it, a FLAT +100 bonus to both ARMIES and Cities!!!. Please nerf this bonus, it is too large, and it snowballs, very very hard to defeat after it is taken.
This is really worthwhile, it is a huge strategic goal really, much better than monoculture (8 cities!), and is worth the huge investment to get. I think it should be nerfed since it is really something that is almost impossible to beat once a sufficiently capable player gets it.
As for the rush … Price 250 gold for one settler eliminates the construction of cities. Completely. Now I am much easier to build a 2-3 shock troop units and kill the opponent in the course of 16-17. But! The only class that can hold spam cities – a … Dreadnought! Up to 50 points of production! Great!
Good point there – Dread has a huge advantage now in city spamming. Also, I don’t think the price difference makes a dent in the advantage Tigrans and esp. Humans get. You, devs, should play some MP one day.
Just to clarify, JJ said in some thread this:
Tombles said, he will add a change so that DISABLED (that is, webbed, paralyzed, entangled, netted and all other states that disallow a unit to act and retaliate) DO NOT GIVE ANY XP ANYMORE.
So my question is this:
If my sorcerer hero will now kill a unit with a stunning ranged attack he will not gain experience? And if my Watcher will kill with Doom gaze he will not gain experience? this is sort of lame….. Of course I guess this isn’t what is meant by this, but it could be implied by it, so it needs to be worked out in a manner that makes sure that it doesn’t happen.
Also, I am not absolutely sure I am for this change myself. Sure its cheesy to web targets and then level your units this way, and sure it gives AD a very big advantage since they get spider whereby others don’t have access to these units as such etc… But this is I find this change quite bad in itself. I hope there is some other way to work around this, perhaps by addressing the AD summoning spell itself perhaps, or some other way.
As for the Theocrat, the buffs hero wise are pretty minor. Bestow Iron Heart gives a pretty good buff for the whole of combat in exchange for 5hp of healing, it also lets you cancel mind control as you go. I dunno, what if the cost of Aura of Healing was reduced to 3 as well? That would let you have both Chaplain and Heal Aura for 6 points.
I’d like that, but then again I have to ask why you oppose giving Sorcerer mend magical being so much on level 3? It seems you are exceedingly generous with buffing Theo heroes and Sorcerer is a sub-par hero type in my book, whereby theo is by far a better army leader.
What are you going to do about human/tigran RG1 econ that gives settler discount?
hmm, shocking is is there on star blades so there will be redundancy. Can be solved by changing it, but its a complex change.
I dislike inflict stun cuz its both borderline OP, sort of boring and doesn’t require any kind of thinking to actually use. Sorcerer could really be improved by addressing this tech, which is its main problem IMO – I hope the devs will do something about it, since it really makes Socerer sort of two dimensional.
Also another problem for me, maybe only for me but still, all support units get what apprentices get so there really isn’t much point of building these with most races. Unless you are playing a race that has a crappy attack and need the triple channel attack (which is actually quite weak often times!) you are better off with racial supports which are cheaper to build and offer a better set of skills usually. compare what forge priests, mystics or white witches offer and really apprentices look like a crappy deal.
What I’d like is for the Sorcerer techs to be restricted to some extent to apprentices – maybe its just me. I certainly would like apprentices to be better, or cheaper, or to level quicker – getting them to float is very difficult :). And building them with this in view has proven a bad idea, at least for me.
What do you guys think?
I’m sorry ExNihil, but I can’t make balances changes based simply on your requests. I need consensus that what I’d be changing is both supported by other players and fixing a widely recognized problem. So far, you’ve had a bunch of people disagree that the unit even needs changing, yet alone that your particular change would be a good one.
Adding 4 MPs would change the whole character of the unit, and it would have to become lighter: less HPs, less damage , weaker doom gaze, also 2 Inflict abilities would be problematic, not to mention Total Awareness.
Total awareness is due to all the eyes being there, although vigilant would have been fitting as well I suppose (I dunno which one is more powerful really). For my money I would rather see it weaker and more agile, having it slow down stacks is frustrating and annoying – and usually involves tagging it along with PW + apprentices in the end.
Wouldn’t a watcher with -1def -10HP and +4 movement points be balanced? It would be a squisher combat unit but a faster trooper. Still the fastest Sorcerer stacks, which include a flying hero + leveled node serpents travel at a maximum of 40MP floating.
Ah, don’t play innocent now
Nothing to do with innocence, you want civility, how about starting with yourself? from now on I’ll start by ignoring you.
It is an interesting jumping off point, but runs into some problems. One is that the sorcs whole class is around maximizing shock damage, so to put a core ability on the spirit channel is fairly odd.
But the simple fix for this is simply to switch Inflict Dazzle itself from Spirit to Shock – this wouldn’t take the devs more then 3 minutes of work. This really wouldn’t hurt Halflings at all – it would actually improve them, since there are fewer shock resistant units in the game then spirit resistant ones. And I don’t really see why fire works should work vs. the Spirit channel to begin with :).
As for your words regarding storm sisters – I refer you to my discussion in the racial balancing thread on HE, IMO, high elves actually have a serious synergy problem currently with sorcerer, and this will resolve it. Humans have, weirdly, a better synergy. Draconians and Frostlings also have a better synergy. Even Goblins have a better synergy. Etc.
Yes, 17 😃.
@taykor, what? And why the bad vibe? I made a proposal, explained it, used question marks and all. Never assumed it was in my power to change. Would appreciate a basic level of civilty from you, since you are so caring about caring. You on the other hand simply make assertions and don’t explain why, this isn’t even pretending to have a discussion – I find that rather ironic.
Back on topic: what kind of change would you guys find that is acceptable to everyone concerned?
Sorcerer has 2 type of units:
Fast units: Node Serpent (fastest), Flyers (arguably fastest), heroes.
28MP floaters: phantasm warrior, Watcher, apprentices at gold.
And other units.
it goes well with slow stack, slows fast stacks, simple. Not fun. With all due respect, 4 MP is not worth 27HP under any kind of circumstances, maybe if we are talking about resurgence, no 4MP here – but this is not exalted. I was suggesting this since there is no need for such a tanky t3 with Node Serpent being good now, which it actually is, and Watcher is actually quite slow and annoying for me – and I’d like it to be a bit faster, but also a bit weaker, hence my suggestion for it to be both nerfed and a bit faster. I don’t think this kind of speed will be problematic, you can in fact reduce its defense rating by 1 as well, so remove 7 HP and 1 defense, so it will be 11 defense, 11 resistance and 65HP, a serious nerf to watcher in all accounts for a 4MP buff. I’d call this a major nerf.
Is it broken? I don’t think it’s broken, but it is border line OP, always has been, and this will be more balanced and a bit more fun to play with IMO as a player who plays sorcerer quite a bit (and definitely easier to kill PvP.)
7HP = 1.5 points of resistance and defense, or 7.5% inflict chance calculation (or spell chance) calculation most of the time.
4 move movement points: 1 hex over regular terrain.
I’d say what I am suggesting IS a nerf, why not? It will be more fun and less tanky, all good in my opinion.
Sure, thats why I suggest to make it faster – which will make it more fun to play with, since I don’t particularly enjoy playing with this unit, which drags around my armies, but make it actually weaker. It now has, iirc 72HP or something suchlike, so I am suggesting a pretty serious nerf here in exchange for one extra hex of movement over regular terrain.
Well, its a frustratingly slow t3 unit, quite powerful but with node serpent at 75HP, it can certainly take an HP decrease now. it will be both more useful and fun to use with 32MP as a floater. Node Serpent as recruit has 32MP, and horrors have 32MP, so I think it would be a good think for this unit to have 32 MP as Well.
I’d say – decrease its HP or something else, or increase its upkeep or something, up to you, and increase its MP. Not sure if it has True Sight, if it doesn’t it should have it as well (only makes sense I believe).
I think it could defintely be a 65HP t3 unit with Node Serpent at 75HP now.
Can I ask that Watcher lose some HP and get +4 MP?
Cool, thanks! Can you make sure that invigorate itself doesn’t come off cooldown when you invigorate a unit that has invigorate and already used it? this currently allows chaining, so you use shamans, simply moving all over the battlefield, invigorating and moving double each combat round and then heroes shooting like 6 or 7 times, horrible stuff.
Well, I don’t play frostlings or necro. The pledge of protection is very powerful on independent sites IMO, esp early on and on autocombat. Thats why I suggest it be moved to iron medal or bronze medal, to remove it from independents. Frostlings certainly can take this nerf and still remain top-tier.
Can I suggest that pledge of protection is moved to Bronze Medal or Iron medal at least? This way players could still get them out with this trait with relative easy, but sites will not have this ability enabled. Frostlings seem to me to be OP as shit, esp. as independent defenders and they make creeping the map very difficult occasionally – some combinations are very difficult, for example, 2 frost queens + frostling pikeman hit much harder then anything comparable, and I wouldn’t dare going into this dungeon unless I was feeling like losing at least 2 units, and they usually end up killing at least one of my heroes.