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Sorry, let me rephrase. I was curious as to why you say something is not feasible with a class if you haven’t tried the strategy yourself. The other part of your post was that I misunderstood, I took it to mean that you haven’t tried the necro class itself, and I am truly sorry for the misunderstanding. I’ve been a bit on the edge recently in these discussions, what with all the arguing that originates, and I apologize for that. I meant no insults whatsoever.
I’m speaking about Suppress Nature here, I play a bio-goblin dread, but I will try to get it up and running by turn twenty. I play agressive settler spam* with expander, explorer and grey guard adept, and it’s a very useful spell. It allows you to get cities where you normally couldn’t, which means you can grab powerful resource sites, which you can clear out easily once you have golems. And all it takes is a mana node, two shrines and a temple, which is not that difficult to do.
*Because CiV is a jerk who won’t let me do it half as much, even if I’m playing liberty.
All of what I wrote except the Necro bit is based on first hand experience.
o_O This is a necromancer class discussion. Just, why? Try a class before you go arguing about it, please. If you have already played it extensively, I apologize.
Great post CP, Just one thing – about Essence Harvest: Simplest solution is to make it work with incorporeal but not on anything that is solid.
I’m personally against it. The whole idea for Essence Harvest is that you’re purging the land of abominations to nature. Making only incorporeal be affected is a bad idea. I’d say just have it not affect ghouls.
Wouldn’t any of the ideas I suggested in the OP work to help this? I mean to tie summoning to some degree to Geographic tiles, and/or shift some unit(s) to city production?
I like the idea of geography tying in with the summon, although I’d say not to remove anything from the pool, just add in an extra point for that unit if you’re in the right terrain. Making it so that some units are impossible is a terrible idea. What if you’re stuck in the blight thanks to some bad positioning? Do you really want to not be getting anything other than Blight Tusk Boars?
Jumping in here to say my, probably, unpopular opinion once again for a balance thread. First off, numbers don’t make or break a race. This game is more than a collection of numbers, unless you’re going technically and calling it out for being a binary system. Anyway, thinking is a major player in this game. Strategy, spells, etc, are all players in a game. Just because a unit wins one-on-one does not mean that it wins in the grand scheme of things. Status effects, player strategies, thinking ahead and positioning all play a major role in how a game plays out. Saying that a unit is better simply because it has better attack is stupid.
Second: please, for the love of Pete, can we just conduct a study on this? Could we have, I don’t know, all of you playing the game to prove your points? Record it, play against other people, I don’t really care. Just stop theorycrafting and kill each other in a game to show that you’re right.
One problem is that when do you use this spell?A big combat?A small combat?
It has more meaning in a small combat,This is a great limit to this spell.In a big combat,with 25 cast points,you can do many other things.And it costs 1100 researing cost.Mainly for a small combat?
Randomness is ok,but if we think about the range,we have the reason to buff it.
I think of range, thank you very much. I use this spell all the time. It works wonders in battles where I’ve just taken control of an enemy unit, to remove it from being under their control, I use it in massive battles when my low or high tier units are close to dying, and I use it in minor skirmishes. It works in all of them, if you know how to use it. It works in all sorts of battles. It certainly doesn’t need a buff. If you allow it to resurrect units, you take all the risk out of it. If a unit was already dead, it doesn’t matter if it gets turned into a dragon or a warg, it still is a new unit in the battlefield that would not have been there otherwise.
And you take the randomness as a good point by default.I don’t think so.Although you know tigran shaman can transform to bear,but the gold medal bear have fear strike.You can’t know whether his fear strike will fear you.Although the “unstable transformation” has randomness，I am sure about one thing:The unit transformed has no medal.It means the unit won’t have many abilities and perhaps is weaker than my lower tier units.I am not afaid about this.
Okay, let me reiterate. When you have randomness in the form of unstable transformation, it’s generally good. It’s unplannable. You have no way to predict what will come out. When a tigran shaman comes at gold medal, you do know that fear strike is going to become a problem at one point or another. You will probably have some units with strong will or something that you will use to defeat it. When I use unstable transformation, you will not be able to have a unit there that will automatically be ready for the coming transformation. You never know if something that you cannot defeat will pop out, and as such you can’t be ready for the transformation. Mystics and shamans can be planned around. Unstable transformation? Not so much.
Ah. Well, you’ve been turtling. You want to go and take snagna’s first city as soon as you find it. Then you want to continue grabbing cities and developing them. Head to the dragon lair in the east. You’ll get a dragon. Then just go out and take cities. The AI starts out with a massive upper hand, and you want to negate that as soon as possible by taking their cities.
Um… unstable needs no buff. It already turns a unit, usually an almost dead one, into a full-health unit of equal or greater strength. It’s a huge advantage, and allowing it to affect dead units would take the risks out of it. When you use it on an almost dead unit, you’re giving up any chance of the unit surviving, but you’re also getting a huge advantage: a brand new unit that your opponent was unable to plan for. That alone makes it valuable. Randomness is one of the most crippling things to someone strategies, and unstable can allow you to do that.
As for tigran and hero items: the mask thingy is actually a downgrade at times. Your powerful hero now loses the equivalent of a tier or two by the time you have that item, so it’s a last resort heal up to keep them alive and for a new attack. As for tigran shaman and mystic: those are a straight up change. There is no randomness. You opponent knows full well about that unit and its capabilities, and is able to plan for it happening. It also is not an upgrade. It is always a tier two changing into a tier two. No upgrade, just a change/July 5, 2015 at 14:55 in reply to: something i just noticed is missing from this game #215204
Um, I know you mentioned Horned God, but he’s all the tree people we’re likely to get. Warcraft and AoW are set in very different worlds with very different creatures. Tree men are just not the type of being you find in Aow.
Can’t say I play a whole lot of AD, so I don’t really know, but I’m pretty certain that by the time you have Meteoric Armor, you’ve got way better things to be building than Hunters. For example: all of that applies to Dwarf Shamans too, who also don’t exist in a state where there is a comparable cost other race Shaman that is clearly superior to them (like with Elf Hunters, because no way is a few points of defense and mountain concealment going to be worth as much as having Longbows 90% of the time)
Am I incorrect in that assumption?
Yes. Hunters are good in any stage of the game. Unlike Shaman, who work best with animals, hunters are independent units. They’re also fast, mobile, versatile and they hit relatively hard. I use them to pick off enemy armies as they march around. The concealment makes them extremely good, as you can hide a stack of them close to where you need to, and then snipe away.July 5, 2015 at 14:44 in reply to: Some cosmic events are infuriating early game and need to go. #215201
Um, I actually like those Cosmic events. And that’s the point of them. You’re supposed to adapt your strategy according to what Cosmic Events are going on, as they change the way the game plays out. Thick fog really spins things up, what with scouting and all, and it affects everyone, and for that I find it really fun. As for Luck: seriously? Luck is such a fun thing. I don’t play halflings myself, but I find the mechanic to be really fun and enjoyable, even when fighting it.
Agreed, it’s pretty epic. I’ve also found it’s good music to listen to when you want to plot your character’s death in your story. Out of pure curiosity, may I see a piece of your art?
That is an idiotic comment eric ridge; if you’re going to comment at least try to read and understand the proposal. I said equal leveling speed, not unequal leveling speed. That is very VERY clear.
Actually, that’s what Ericridge was saying. It takes 70 experience to get a tier one to elite, 200 for a tier four. Higher tiers gain exp faster simply because, at that point in the game, there is a lot more fighting. More fighting means more chances to kill things, which means more xp in turn. Equal leveling speed would be impossible, as each unit is exposed to different battles each game. It’s pretty fair the way it works now.
I would except Shrine of Smiting – might be a machine that works with special Spirit Magic -, but for everything else there is no reason why a Dread, if they can reassemble their own cannons shouldn’t be able to reassemble an enemy Cannon. Ships sink, so that’s not possible, but for the rest?
If two Dreads clobber it out – wtf?
If a non-Dread is fielding machines against Dread (Shrine excepted) – wtf?
I was running under the assumption that different races have access to different materials. It’s not possible for two different massive empires to use the exact same machine parts. America didn’t even get standard size plugs and whatnot till recently. Goblins aren’t going to be using the same machine parts as dwarves, even if they have the same abilities. As an example, most companies are unable to fix something due to the fact that it wasn’t their build. Screws and the like are ridiculously hard to find unless they come from the company who made the machine that requires the screw.
I agree that reassembly should work on all machines.
That’s a terrible idea, both lorewise and gameplay wise. For starters, how would you feel if your shrine of smiting was destroyed, and suddenly rebuilt itself and started pummeling your forces? It’s a bad idea. Dreadnought’s reassemble works similar to lesser reanimate undead, where it only works on friendly undead. If you made reassemble work on all machines, suddenly boats, trebuchets, battering rams, and shrines of smiting are all a hazard when fighting dreadnought. I’m pretty certain that the devs do not want that. True resurrect is an actual spell that achieves the same affect, but it is a secret spell, hard to get, tier six, and it cost five mana more.
Second, from a lore perspective, it makes very little sense as well. I doubt that a dreadnought is going to know exactly how to fix an enemy built machine. While they may have similar parts, they all have different makers, and thus must have their own parts that the dreadnought wouldn’t know how to use.
Try large map size, slowest research speed. It will force players to only get their first two or three units by turn sixty or so, and you’ll rely on barracks and warhall far more. Unfortunately, there is no way to actually prevent the AI from using specific units. It might get access to yetis through hall of the forefathers or Trolls from racial governance in late game. All in all, you’d best set dwellings to none and game speed to slowest. That’s your best bet.
Please. Age of Wonders is ridiculously well priced. This expansion gave us two new races, one new class, a new dwelling, three new specializations, cosmic events and a few other things. For twenty dollars. Twenty dollars is nothing for content in many games that are released now days. There’s some video I could probably pull up on the subject. Anyway, compared to games like Evolve or whatever it’s called, this game is a bargain. If you really want to feel like you’re getting cheated, go play something made by Blizzard. Preferably Heroes of the Storm or Hearthstone. Now those are overpriced.
Hasty plunder + animate ruins.
Not an actual option. The devs made it impossible to raze undead cities for that particular reason back in closed beta for eternal lords.
Brief thing I need to bring up. We cannot change the damage channels on shrine to 7/7/7. Why? Because of the way the attack functions. It currently gains +2/+2 for each devout unit in the stack. If it were to be changed, it would require massive retooling of the attack, something that certainly isn’t worth it. I don’t care how unbalanced the matchup is, it’s not worth it. We would have to make it +1/+1/+1 for each devout unit, which is a definite nerf to the theocrat, something I’m sure would just make people more angry regardless of what side you sit on, or it would have to become +2/+2/+2, which is completely broken. You’d be getting a 17/17/17 damage attack for five other devout units: need I say that this would be OP? Either way, changing the damage channels to fire/shock/spirit is certainly not a good idea for the amount of balancing that would be required.
I personally like the current system a lot, where you get a list of standard skill per class that appear randomly, and then you get a few others that you choose, in this case specializations. As much as I enjoy Civilization, I find it’s tech tree to be very much lacking. Aow3, however, has lots of possible skill combinations that come up. I mean, even taking a different adept drastically changes how your tech tree will be next time around.
It’s powerful, sure, but they’re almost as squishy as the glutton. They are not for prolonged fighting.
Their attack would be ideal vs. machines, because most machines don’t answer on attacks. But it’s quite problematic with spirit immunity of machines…
But that’s not what the evangelist is built for. It’s not an anti-machine unit, it’s the epitome of buffers. If the evangelist was built for fighting hand-to-hand, then yes, I would say that it should probably get something like demolisher, as it is negating its biggest advantage. However, the evangelist isn’t for major battles. The assassin got undead slayer because it was losing out on it’s blight damage, and the assassin is designed for killing units. The evangelist, however, is not.
- This reply was modified 3 years, 2 months ago by President.
Evangelists are no frontline units – it doesn’t matter much that they lose spirit damage, because they won’t attack anyway.
Why then devs give them relatively powerful melee attack? Just for show? Also Touch of Faith and Convert are one-use abilities, so what after that?
Healing? They’re designed to go with martyrs. That attack is not for show, but it is for finishing enemies off, not starting fist fights. It’s powerful, sure, but they’re almost as squishy as the glutton. They are not for prolonged fighting.
Evangelist – 8 pts of spirit damage lost. +3 pts from heretic can’t compensate.
Brief point. Evangelist is not meant to go toe-to-toe with anything but tier one units. It is a support unit whose job is to heal and buff your units, as well as converting enemy living units. It doesn’t matter nearly as much as you make it out to be, as it will die in melee to anything higher than tier one within the space of two turns. Also, please don’t drag me into this. I have no opinion on this whole argument, I just felt I needed to point this out.
- This reply was modified 3 years, 2 months ago by President.
No, they don’t. But if you’re gonna record the results of a significant amount of games between players of equal skill, then I think they would listen. However, the equal skill is kind of hard to measure and the amount of games needed to offset RMG randomness is insane.
I really want to do a study on this. I suppose the best way to determine relative skill level is probably asking people what level AI they generally feel comfortable playing. It wouldn’t be perfect, but it might do.
Do the devs really get data from all the games we play?
Honestly? I think it could be changed, but nothing major. My logic relies very much upon, a) how much work would it take, b) what would it change, and c) would it be worth it. I think that a simple change, such as maybe demolisher to crusaders or exalted, or devout units, could be warranted in order for it to take on things like Golems.
I really dislike the idea of adding it to a global spell that is already in existence, as that would skyrocket their power. Things like great purge are used for taking out sorcerers and archdruids, and Armageddon already weakens machines as well as almost all other classes, necro excluded.
I’m highly against changing damage channels, as those have been in place for a while and seem relatively balanced. Demolisher to crusaders and exalted would most likely work best, as it wouldn’t mean all that much for obstacles and walls, as both can’t attack them in a siege, and those two are what the theocrat seem to use against dreads. I don’t play theo or dread vs theo enough to have overwhelming evidence, unfortunately, but a plus four melee damage to machines, or even demolisher x2, might be enough. I just think that this would be easiest and change just enough to affect the one matchup, but none of the others.
Absolutely. This has been tried before, I invited a few of the participants to play matches with me. I was shut down quickly. The point of this discussion, aside from the nerdiness of the participants, is to address the devs – as you know I assume. The only problem is that people turn this into a freakshow of an argument rather than simply have a nice discussion. The devs are professionals, and they have a lot more data than all of us combined.
Do the devs really get data from all the games we play? I never could figure that out. Either way, it’s still unlikely to be conclusive. I play AoW a bit while lacking Wi-Fi, and I bet others do as well, so some data might be missing. And, to be fair, I think a lot of the argument could have been avoided by a bit more communication on both ends.
All I wish is to put my ideas forward, and discuss those of others, and let the devs decide what they think is a good idea and what isn’t. Some degree of argument is useful of course, but I find the general spirit of the balancing sub-forum to be somewhat negative.
By commenting here, you open yourself up to be criticized by the forum. Recently, I’ve noticed multiple threads where the OP said that they were appealing to the devs alone. When you share an opinion, people have every right to criticize it. It’s a common issue I find as a writer and critic as well, where new writers are unwilling to take criticism. I’m not saying that that was the issue here, it’s just a point a find myself having to make more and more nowadays. Regardless, I’d try and contribute my two cents to the original discussion, but I am very much neutral on this.
Guys, you are not going to get anyone to come to your side of thinking if you don’t prove it with something other than words. I was neutral when the original theocrat thread started, and I’m still neutral. Just stop typing and go out and prove it. Give us images, videos, whatever. Everyone here has their own personal experiences for dreadnought vs. theocrat, and if they differ from yours, that doesn’t mean that they’re wrong. I’ve seen players pull of mana fuel cells early on and stomp everyone else, I’ve seen people get mobile units as theocrats who proceeded to wreck me, and I’ve seen plenty of other scenarios similar to the ones in this thread.
This is a video game, not a great classic where we’re trying to decipher the larger meaning. Debates like this work well for literature, because that was the medium they were meant for. This is a game where you use strategic planning and tactical prowess to achieve victory. Words are possibly the least useful way to get your point across. As I said earlier, just fight each other a bunch of times using the combinations and points you’ve made. I will arrange it if I have to. You all claim to have data supporting your claims. Just go and prove your claims. Please.
Really? Just fight each other using the points you’ve given, that should solve your issue. It is not by speeches and majority vote that the great questions of our time will be decided- but rather by iron and blood -Otto von Bismarck. Seriously, just test this. We’re here debating this like we’re a bunch of diplomats discussing the possibility of war. It’s a game about fighting, is it that hard to just arrange a game and prove your point through that? Anyway,
I apologize if I come off as irritable, I’m just sick of this whole argument.
The hard part, apart from the question of whether it’s really necessary at all, is finding a justification for why theocrats would have all this anti-machine stuff.
At the risk of being politically incorrect, one could potentially link it to the tendency of religion to be anti-progress, and thus a theocrat might extol extra hatred of the signs of progress. This could translate into an upgrade that grants Demolisher to some appropriate units.
I don’t think it’s so much anti-progress as it is not attempting to mimic higher powers. If you look into religious/mythological texts, please don’t turn this into a religious debate, I suck at those, a few have examples of mortals being punished for trying to become like the gods. The Tower of Babel, Prometheus and Fire, and so on. They get punished for trying to make mortals on the same level as the gods. Of course, I could be wrong, but that’s just my two cents.June 22, 2015 at 22:27 in reply to: [Request] Please make it impossible to enter Mystical Sites with 0 MP left #212708
Why? It’s not like they’re walking a mile or something. At least in my mind, each hex represents about a few thousand feet or so. The troops are just walking ten more feet into the structure, it’s not like they’re crossing the Rubicon. If it’s because they can enter and run out, it’s not really that bad, people do that all the time in real life.
I honestly gave everything a ‘I strongly enjoy this’ or ‘I enjoy this,’ to be perfectly honest. For what could be improved, I said that for most, I would love to see more work put into them or I had no opinion, not so much that it’s bad, but you guys have done amazing jobs on everything so far. I figure that those are the areas that I would love to see more work on, and you guys have done amazing work on everything so far, so I figure that anything you work on will be awesome,
Admittedly, I’m a triumph fanboy, so I’m biased, but you guys are the best game company I know about. Seriously. You listen to our points, you explain why something won’t work, you give fair prices for everything, and you take our opinions on balance into account. Blizzard could learn a thing or two from you guys.
Stop trying to nickel and dime us with DLC. I NEVER buy any DLC or most expansions. If you can’t give it to me in ONE game then I’m not going to give it to you in others.
What? How is Triumph nickel and diming? This game has been out a year, and there have been only two expansion with a crapton of content. They don’t overcharge us for what we pay for, and they are really good at delivering what they promise. Compared to Civilization V and things like Evolve with in-game purchases, this game is a bargain for Expansions and DLC. Also, it’s hard to add everything at the beginning. Simply put, if they release a good game at the beginning, as they did here, it allows for them to add in more features that the community looks for without having to force other people to pay extra for things they don’t want.